Which turbo is right for me (FD3S)!
 

Hey guys looking for help deciding on a single turbo. i have a stock port fresh rebuild (720km, still breaking in) with almost new housings and rotors, re amemiya 3' exhaust with feed turbo downpipe, and plan on getting front facing turbo manifold, power fc, intercooler, radiator, intercooler piping and full emissions delete with the turbo, and injectors for whichever turbo i go with.

what turbos could i look into to for 400+whp for this build. id like boost to come as soon as possible but id rather more power even it it comes in really late.

id like to know what kind of power band i can expect with the turbo/turbos you would suggest suited for this build

thanks guys

Joel

Overall consensus on this forum for around 400-450hp - GT35R

I'd say that you have multiple choices, mostly based off the GT35 or it's variants.

You do realize that to properly upgrade from basically stock (which it seems you are) to a reliable/quality single turbo setup will cost you anywhere from $7k-$10k. I'd do a LOT more research before diving into that change.

You might want to gradually step up to the single life, both in mods/cost and in power levels. A 400whp FD is no joke, if you just hop from 220whp-250whp to 400whp there is a good chance you'll break something. Like yourself.

Just as a comparison, when my FD was right around 400whp I ran even with a 600whp Mach1 on the highway.

what would you expect to go wrong/should i improve on? and dont say me again because i'd like your real opinion please

my trans and rear case have 75,xxxkm and i plan on getting a clutch kit and 4:30 gear set before i finish my break in next summer with the new turbo

what kind of whp could i expect with a t04z on 14-18psi vs. a gt35r on the same boost

On a budget;

Garrett TD61 Journal Bearing - Turblown Engineering
(Click enlarge for dyno sheet )

No budget;

Garrett TDX61 - Turblown Engineering

i say......... do all of your IC/rad/power FC/ emissions delete first and rock the twins untill you have issues. Then pull them and go single. this would be the easiest route.

You might want to gradually step up to the single life, both in mods/cost and in power levels. A 400whp FD is no joke, if you just hop from 220whp-250whp to 400whp there is a good chance you'll break something. Like yourself.

This is good advise!!! Your talking a car thats bout as fast as a 600cc crotch bike.

35r,
borg warner s300/360
TD61
500r
t04z
Gt37
Gt40/88
gt40/94
etc... All these turbos are around the same size and will yeild 400+. The last few will get near 550-600 at higher boost levels.

^+1!!!!!!!!

It cost a decent amount of cash to make a nice reliable 400whp car. You can get lazy and go cheap but in the end you have a cheap setup that prob wont last. People have done it but not the best route to go.

If your going to do something, its worth it to do it right.

Whats the difference between the TD61 and a GT35R with T4 divided 1.06 hot side?

The turbine is a P-Trim (bigger) which is better for ported motors and mid-range/top-end. The compressor is the same.

thewird

What are the actual size differences in the stock 35r turbine and one with a P-trim??

Stock 35r is a 68mm inducer/???( avoiding math, its an 84trim) exducer. What about the P-trim???

Is there also a difference in the pitch of the blades?

Are there any turbine flow map of the p-trim?? Have a stock 35r below...

When I said that something (like you) could break I simply meant that you could under estimate a 400whp FD and take your car off roading with the potential of seriously injuring yourself and your vehicle. Basically I'm saying that you might want to take it slow and gradually work up to 400whp, learn to handle the car at each level. It's cheaper and safer this way.. Trust me on that one, lol.

Getting a 4.30 rear is a waste of money, you don't need that and won't really see a difference unless you're running serous drag tires.

As for other little things that you'll want/need to upgrade OTHER than the basic IC/Rad/ECU I would suggest:

3-bar MAP sensor
Boost Controller
Fuel Pump/FPR/ID1000/2000 Injectors and rails
Differential
wheels/tires
QUALITY turbo kit (Elliot @ Turblown or Sean @ A-Spec)
Suspension
Brakes
Oil Coolers
new OEM Coils
HKS Twin Power
Water/Meth Injection system
Gauges (AFR, dual EGT, boost, etc)

As a basic start.

Also, for the IC/Radiator setup I would suggest you just do it right (once) and get a V-Mount setup, as opposed to a Front Mount. For the ECU, the PFC is a great computer for what it's designed for.. That being twin setups at under 400whp. Depending on what people around there know I would go with something newer that can take advantage of more systems (Haltech, Motec, Link, etc) and that you won't outgrow as soon.

Personally I moved from a basically stock FD to my current setup gradually over a six year period. All told it's cost me over $50k and the only thing that really failed me has been the attention to detail paid shops have given to my engine builds. I'm building my own engine now and I expect nothing but success because I've taken a LONG time to work towards where I'm at and I have put the right components in the right places to upgrade the ENTIRE system evenly so that it will all work well and compliment itself.

Add-
New clutch
Solid motor mounts
Diff brace
Trans brace
-the extra power flexs the whole drivetrain alot. You don't want to crack the PPF

Be sure your Pillow balls are new, the extra power really flexes them. Fully adjustable coil overs were my favorite upgrade I ever did.

Unless your twins are totally shot, do the other mods first. If they NEED to be replaced, you can always get a 7psi spring in the wastegate of a single, and get by.

Cheapest way to go on the fuel system is stock primaries, bored 1300cc secondaries and a highflow warblo255 and a PFC w/data logit. With that alone you can get to 400 ish rwhp, But you then have no room to grow. Many would dis-agree with this put it does work with a small single.

Anyone know about the tubine wheel sizes???

S366

He had already said that he planned on getting a new clutch, so I didn't mention that. I *would* suggest that he get something rated at the 350-400 torque range though. That way he's not likely to outgrow his clutch at 400whp.

Also, the solid engine mounts transfer a decent amount of vibration into the cabin, I don't think that's entirely necessary unless he's not planning on streeting his car, and/or he wants to make girls specifically dislike riding in his toy =P

A diff brace and transmission brace would def help though (I'd go with both from Banzai).

I would certainly disagree with your fueling suggestion, lol. Nothing personal, but if he's looking to be cheap on his conversion than A) an all-in-one-shot conversion is not for him, and B) Fueling is NOT where you want to cheap out...

I would not do 550/1300 on a single setup, period. On twins, sure... maybe... but not on a single. And I would personally stay away from walbro pumps! They have too much bad press of them randomly failing that I wouldn't even waste the time and money on them. There are many other, better, options that are NOT like playing Russian Roulette (Denso, Bosch, Aeromotive, etc).


His original question was about what size turbo he should use, so that's really the main variable here... Myself, I went from BNR Stage 3 twins (in sequential) running about 380 at 18psi to a Precision PT6265 doing 400whp at about 13psi and 470 at like 19psi (on a bad motor). There are many medium sized turbos in that same size range that will give him 400whp with relatively fast spool (mine was at full boost by like 3.7krpms).

Honestly I think he needs to do a bit more thinking before just jumping into a single conversion though, because it's not as simple as just replacing the turbo, getting a new intercooler, and replacing the ECU. Sure, you CAN do a single conversion like that... but how long will it last for?

"but how long will it last for? " As long as its tuned properly it will be just fine.

1000cc/2200cc injectors are way overkill for those turbos, that kinda fuel at 85% duty will make like 800 Flywheel hp. Thats a bit of over kill. 550/1300 are good for about 470 flywheel hp@85% duty cycles. Though many are biased against it(1300's) I have seen it work since 2004 in a firiends car.

Rotary Performance Calculators Here is a fuel cal, not exact but close.

That calculator isn't useful in the real world.

Your standard 1600cc (or EV14 2200cc secondaries so you can avoid the resistor/injector driver addon's) secondary upgrade is the minimum you should be considering if your going single. I've maxed 550/1300 combo's on stock twins street ported setups multiple times. Going with that injector setup on a single turbo is a waste of time, just push your twins more to get the same.

thewird

Its a ball park figure, Ageed.

So here are some real world figures, data log and a few shots of the ports.

35r 18psi 93% duty max cycle. This car has 550/1300's large street port.

And here is a log at 15 psi. No room to grow, but 1300's will make 400ish rwhp. And this was a conservtiive safe tune. A/F was in the high tens. I ended up adding timming and pulling more fuel, though I didn't save a log of it.

Not trying to be an ass but something is not working with your setup then. It's not breathing to its full potential or its losing boost somewhere. Don't know why your including pictures of your ports, it doesn't mean anything. But since you brought it up, your secondary port looks small and rough.

I have a log here of a BNR stage 3 twin setup hitting 85% duty cycle @ 6,600 RPM @ 1.17 bar climbing up to 89% by 7,400 RPM with a 550/1300 combo. This is with a 11.1-11.2 AFR. If it takes 18 PSi to achieve similar on your 35r setup, there is a lot of lost power missing somewhere on your setup. A 35R will cream a BNR stage 3 at similiar boost levels.

Also, looking at a recent GT35R I tuned, hits 85% duty @ 7,700 RPM @ 1.1 bar with 50/50 water/meth injection. Or another GT35R that had a low compression motor (10" vacuum @ 1,200 RPM) running a mix of 109 and 91 octane with water injection @ 1.25 bar with ~11.5 AFR's (lean for straight pump gas) hitting 82% by 7,200 RPM. And another GT35R that had a busted turbine from a previous blown motor hitting 88% by 7,700 RPM @ 1.11 bar.

edit: I should have mentioned all logs I posted were with 550/1600 combo's

thewird

System holds pressure, turbo is fine. When these logs were done(2010) vacum was 14-15ish with 900rpm idle. Engine died a coolant seal death. Secondary is getting some Epoxy in the bowl, I am messing with it at the moment, its unfinished. Its much larger than stock, damn near in the water jacket on the closing edge and opening edge barly supports the side seal track, I am open to suggestions...

Is the PFC even designed to operate Peak hold injectors with a resistor??? I wonder how accurate the duty cycles are compared to a Saturate High impedence injector?? Ie is 85% duty cycle with 550/1600cc acutally 3,655cc of fuel???

"Low impedance injectors (1.5 to 4.0 Ohm) have a faster trigger times due to the type of electrical signal pattern emitted by the ECU. This “Peak and Hold” pattern uses a high (6 amp) initial current pulse to open the injector, and then a lower current signal to keep the injector open. Since the “hold” or lower current part of the signal has created a weaker magnetic field, the injector will also close quicker. High impedance injectors (10 to 16 Ohm) are triggered by a low (1 amp) constant current signal and kept open by the same constant (saturated) current for the entire cycle. Due to the lower current needed, less heat is generated during each cycle allowing the injector to stay cool and therefore increase its reliability. The down side is that the trigger time is decreased since there is less of an initial current to actuate (open) the injector. Most OEM injectors are saturated injectors since car manufacturers are most interested in reliability."

My Guess would be No.

I assume you tuned these cars on with a PFC.

When you say all cars mentioned were with 550/1600, this doesn't include the first one with the twins does it??

Also, could you take screen shots of the actual logs??

With resisters, it is true the duty is a little exaggerated since the injectors now open a little slower. But keep in mind duty cycle has more to do with how long the injector has to open then how long its actually open for. At high RPM that window shrinks rapidly and its where ported setups that are flowing well need their fuel. If your torque dies off past 7k RPM, your not gonna need a lot of fuel, but if your motor can hold the torque to redline its needing a hella lot more fuel up there as far as duty cycle goes.

Anyway, I don't remember which of those listed 35R's had resistors and which had FJO drivers (which would control the injectors to their full potential) so I couldn't tell you which is accurate. I tune many cars so obviously can't remember each setup. I've had a going queue of 10-20 cars all season of cars waiting to get tuned and can't catch up. However, I did include that twin setup which is running your exact same injector combo. I do remember we had to rewire the fuel pump to get more fuel out of it for the higher boost. Those Supra pumps really like to draw amperage. I've included everything you need to know from the logs for those particular setups in the previous post.

Everyone thinks their cars are in perfect running condition. The reality is 95% of the cars dropped off to get tuned have issues, whether big or extremely minor. Some cars I'm impressed by, others I say "that's it?", and others are just "standard". To make power, everything has to be setup properly and is a balance, not just what turbo you have or what ports you have. I've pretty much made it a practice now to check for boost leaks.

As for the your porting, the opening edge can be pulled out further but you need to be careful with the bottom side where the side seal comes up.

thewird

Added!! - Stock port on this engine. can i make good power with a TD61??

I plan on getting injectors, rail, pump, and pressure regulator, what size injectors and any good brand as far as rail, pump, and pr?

Power fc not good enough?

I wanna do v mount ic and rad, what brand should i go for and cc3 ic piping cut it?

Stock oil coolers good enough??

brand for clutch?

good brand for coil overs+big break kit?

Depending on turbo ill need a manifold and waste gate hopefully for a td61 what are my options and ill have a downpipe built in calgary

banzai diff and trans needed? does that go over top of the existing powerplant or replace?

yes i am going from a 260whp rx7 hopefully strait to 400+whp, in the hopes is will be funner than my last 380awhp gtr. it will be street driven mostly but forsure having track visits in its life.

Thanks for the help all

my twins down here

With the Pfc get the EV-14's. Many different people offer fuel systems, gona be around a grand. At least 2200cc secondaries. Go bigger on primaries if you like, but with a td61 its not needed. If you can afford it do the 1000/2200 like fenada monkey suggested, its just way over kill.

Pfc will work fine but again limits you if you want to get crazy with the power, ie adding additional injectors, the processing speed, and what not.

Vmount- Use the search function and find one that suits your needs.

Clutch- If you have the cash, get a twin disc but they too are about a grand, as far as band I don't think it matters much...

With the coil overs, pay attention to the spring rates. I have 12kg all around, Many seem to like 12 front 10 rear, the RE Amemiya touge battle car runs 16kg front and 18kg rear. Its up to you...

The Banzi stuff braces the ppf and doesn't remove it.

Some of this gets out of the scope of the single turbo talk. Go to the suspension, brakes, cpu and other threads to cover these topics. You do realize all the stuff you are talking here is like easily like $12,000 to $15,000 and thats just to buy the parts. Good luck man.

Maybe you should consider a set of oem fitment
Bathurst sp hitachi twin turbo , the new improved version just got release .

Improvement on original is they have Larger turbine wheels
( std turbine wheel 45mm , new improved is 51mm)

Rated at 650ps ( standard twins 400ps)

Very responsive , but more top end ,
(19psi at 2800 all the way to 8600rpm )

you bump wrong 4 year old thread>
https://www.rx7club.com/new-member-r...pump98-936875/

This is the New improved Bathurst sp twin version , that's the old Bathurst sp twins .

Efr 8374!!!

8374!

7670x2.. or 3

trump!

The 8374 is really nice but really expensive. You could always look into the S300SX-E 8376Â*it shares the same compressor as the efr, however it is a journal bearing and much less than 1/2 the price of the efr

^^^ Also doesnt have the GammaTi turbine wheel, that's a big part of the incredible spool these turbos have since GammaTi is 40% lighter than inconel which is traditionally used in turbine wheels

Anyone can bolt on oem fitment Bathurst sp twin, no need for any fabricating or
Modifications .

And the premium u type intercooler kit with carbon ducting

Ultimate high powered street package .

More info on upgraded Hitachi twins.

1-2 years ago Hitachi released an updated version of the HT12 turbos (the 280ps "99-spec" ones) called the HT12-3KAI. Apparently they can handle much more boost than standard twins reliably (between 15-20 psi) as they are made with stronger bearings, stronger shafts, have a larger wastegate and adjustable actuators.

They cost a pretty penny at about £2,100 before customs and VAT charges but are apparently the best twins around. They come with a 12 month warranty too although that sounds kinda short to me.

There are no modifications required to fit them either.

For those that know their turbos and compressor maps what do you think? I imagine the top end wouldn't be much different than standard twins but the low-to-mid range could be quite a lot beefier.

http://www.fdrx7.com/forum/attachmen...3&d=1374149521

http://www.ricshawracing.com.au/wp-c...urbo-kit-2.jpg

http://www.ricshawracing.com.au/wp-c...urbo-kit-3.jpg

Attachment 752839




280ps HT12 turbos

Attachment 752840




HT12-3KAI

Attachment 752841

http://www.fdrx7.com/forum/attachmen...6&d=1374306767

Info is not 100% correct
They only can flow 15 psi at 7300rpm from standard ht12
15psi at 7000 rpm

They make 13kw from the wheel more than standard ht12 with is
Std ht12 240rwkw and high flow ht12 make 253kw.

The only reason they can only run 15psi up top end ,cause actuators are only
Standard ( no pre load opening at 0.45 bar ).

With pre load they open at 0.65 bar , like standard ht12.

Bathurst sp twins have the actuator made by hitachi special order with 0.85 bar opening with no pre load .
You can adjust the pre to 1bar .

This allows for the factory boost solinoide to run high boost with the Apexi Ecu .
Also the Bathurst sp version compressors covers are remanafactured like limited Bathurst sp version , they have larger A/R than the std ht12 3ka version , this allow for top end flow

The Bathurst sp turbine wheels are 51mm x 56mm,

Std new ht12 turbine wheel are 45mm x 50mm

Compressor wheels (43.2 mm x 57mm ht12 -3ka)

Bathurst sp compressor wheels( 47m x 68mm)

This allows Bathurst sp twin version to flow to 8600rpm at 19psi

Bathurst sp twin have a 360degree thurst bearing support plate , for high reliable boost .
Good for 350rwkw e85 or high octane unleaded ( eg vp fuel ms 100)
Or 300rwkw on pump 98 fuel

Thanks for the additional info. I pulled most of this information from various posts from Ric Shaw in Australia as I can't read Japanese so couldn't verify what was different on these twins.

i dont get it, the fd left production in 2002.. why they make these new turbos? any dynos yet??

same...so where does one actually buy these "new" turbos??

The three places I know of for the Hitachi HT12-3KAI are:

Ric Shaw Racing - Australia

http://www.ricshawracing.com/

Under "Parts & Suppliers"

AUD 4,400

GCG Turbos - Australia

Mazda : Hitachi HT12-2KAI RX-7 FD3S Upgrade Turbochargers

AUD 4,500

GCG Turbos Japan

GCG TURBOS

JPY 330,000

PDF (page 33 but lots of cool graphs and info in this pdf) - http://www.gcgturbo.co.jp/uploads/pdf/gcg_0320.pdf


Psst...cheapest from GCG Japan directly (before shipping and customs of course).