Correct me if I'm wrong, but steel and ceramic bearings shouldn't be the reason for the response.
I would expect the weight of the rotating assembly to be the limiting factor. Obviously, ball bearing turbos do spool faster than journal bearing, but I'm unaware if ceramic makes that much of a difference. |
Originally Posted by ACR_RX-7
(Post 12122991)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but steel and ceramic bearings shouldn't be the reason for the response.
I would expect the weight of the rotating assembly to be the limiting factor. Obviously, ball bearing turbos do spool faster than journal bearing, but I'm unaware if ceramic makes that much of a difference. |
I figured. The lightweight turbine is probably the majority of the reason.
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I think this whole exercise by Garrett is an admission of failure .
We can't do what BW have done with turbine wheels so lets just repackage what we already have. Use a slightly better compressor design but combine that with the expected output numbers to match what Precision do so it looks like we got heaps more power. Throw in a reverse rotation turbo for special effect and the punters will never notice that we really didn't achieve anything. |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 12124414)
I think this whole exercise by Garrett is an admission of failure .
We can't do what BW have done with turbine wheels so lets just repackage what we already have. Use a slightly better compressor design but combine that with the expected output numbers to match what Precision do so it looks like we got heaps more power. Throw in a reverse rotation turbo for special effect and the punters will never notice that we really didn't achieve anything. The problem with reverse turbos is that everything is unique to those turbos, so good luck finding aftermarket turbine housings. |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 12121575)
Just looking at the turbine flow maps on the Garrett website though ..... The new GTX3582R Gen 11 vs the old GT3582R vs the GT3584RS ...flow is EXACTLY the same ! WTF ????
I see they have changed the turbine maps for the GTX3584RS now . However the new maps make even less sense than the old ones did .The AR's and wheel trims aren't even the same as the listed options. Looks like someone at Garrett is determined to f it up ! |
The GTX3584RS has a larger compressor wheel and the turbine map says its a 76 trim wheel, but the specs listed show a 84 trim wheel that is identical is size to the old GT35R.
I really am confused on what Garrett has been up to. They improve the compressor, but seem to ignore the turbine |
Originally Posted by ACR_RX-7
(Post 12125252)
The GTX3584RS has a larger compressor wheel and the turbine map says its a 76 trim wheel, but the specs listed show a 84 trim wheel that is identical is size to the old GT35R.
I really am confused on what Garrett has been up to. They improve the compressor, but seem to ignore the turbine |
Originally Posted by ACR_RX-7
(Post 12125252)
The GTX3584RS has a larger compressor wheel and the turbine map says its a 76 trim wheel, but the specs listed show a 84 trim wheel that is identical is size to the old GT35R.
I really am confused on what Garrett has been up to. They improve the compressor, but seem to ignore the turbine https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...175d4aee6d.jpg |
That turbo isn't divided, so it's not worth a crap anyways...
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Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot
(Post 12125340)
That turbo isn't divided, so it's not worth a crap anyways...
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That GTX3584RS has very slightly better compressor surge line than the old standby T04Z with really about the same compressor map besides and much smaller 68/62mm exhaust wheel vs 74/65mm of the T04Z.
Poor match for rotary compared to T04Z in my opinion. :icon_tdow https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...2701a50e78.jpg |
Originally Posted by BLUE TII
(Post 12125402)
That GTX3584RS has very slightly better compressor surge line than the old standby T04Z with really about the same compressor map besides and much smaller 68/62mm exhaust wheel vs 74/65mm of the T04Z.
Poor match for rotary compared to T04Z in my opinion. :icon_tdow |
Garrett have finally got the correct turbine maps up for the new RS turbine :
Here is the comparison with the old turbine of the same size . Comparing old 1.01 with new RS series1.01 it looks like a gain in flow in the order of 3.5%................... https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...b6f502b4f8.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...cdcc89840b.jpg |
Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot
(Post 12125340)
That turbo isn't divided, so it's not worth a crap anyways...
|
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...b6f502b4f8.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...cdcc89840b.jpg Just noticed the the max efficiency of the new rs wheel is 78% .. vs 70 for the old . According to my mickey mouse comparison on matchbot , this would put the GTX3584RS 68mm wheel with a 1.21 AR housing at about the same backpressure as a normal 74mm wheel in a 1.45 housing .......... Could be merit in this new design as the spoolup has to be better than a normal 74mm wheel . |
For a typical street rotary under 450whp, wouldn't you want a 1.01 AR or lower?
The 1.21 seems like it would take some time to spool up. |
Originally Posted by ACR_RX-7
(Post 12128680)
For a typical street rotary under 450whp, wouldn't you want a 1.01 AR or lower?
The 1.21 seems like it would take some time to spool up. Spoolup is relative to wheel size as well as AR . A 68mm in a 1.21 is going to spool up better than a 74mm in a 1.21 . Which I think is what Garrett is trying to achieve with the RS wheel. Less flow ,but the same backpressure and better spool than a larger wheel in the same sized housing. |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 12128773)
Spoolup is relative to wheel size as well as AR . A 68mm in a 1.21 is going to spool up better than a 74mm in a 1.21 . Which I think is what Garrett is trying to achieve with the RS wheel. Less flow ,but the same backpressure and better spool than a larger wheel in the same sized housing.
When you refer to the 74mm turbine, there has been talk about T04Zs and also the EFR range (and Matchbot)... are you talking about the T04Z 74mm turbine? The distinct concern I have with these things is as you have alluded to, the exhaust back pressure will likely be higher with the GTX3584RS hotside than the T04Z with all other things being equal... and the choke flow on the 67/84mm Gen2 compressor drops as you travel over 2.5PR which means its not a high boost friendly compressor, which lends itself to potentially quite high pressure differential across the motor if you try to hit the GTX3584RS's claimed peak flow. Part of me wonders if it's even possible when attached to an actual engine. |
Originally Posted by Lith
(Post 12134742)
Sorry, a bit late to this party - was just pointed this way, hope it's not too late to join.
When you refer to the 74mm turbine, there has been talk about T04Zs and also the EFR range (and Matchbot)... are you talking about the T04Z 74mm turbine? The distinct concern I have with these things is as you have alluded to, the exhaust back pressure will likely be higher with the GTX3584RS hotside than the T04Z with all other things being equal... and the choke flow on the 67/84mm Gen2 compressor drops as you travel over 2.5PR which means its not a high boost friendly compressor, which lends itself to potentially quite high pressure differential across the motor if you try to hit the GTX3584RS's claimed peak flow. Part of me wonders if it's even possible when attached to an actual engine. |
Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot
(Post 12125340)
That turbo isn't divided, so it's not worth a crap anyways...
Garrett T3 Twinscroll Turbine Housing in Ni-Resist For GT35R/GTX35R 1.01 A/R : atpturbo.com |
according to the ATP site the RS is avail w a T4 1.06 divided... BTW, non-RS hotside housings are not compatible.
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Howard what are your views on the EFR 9174 compared with 9180? Also what would the advantages be of going alum chra ?
Thanks for your input. |
Lots of good info. Saving for later!
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Can this list be updated. It's of great help to all the community.
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