Turbo Comparison... includes new 2015 turbos. see post one - Page 2 - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum

Go Back  RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum > Tech and Performance > Single Turbo RX-7's
Reload this Page >

Turbo Comparison... includes new 2015 turbos. see post one

Single Turbo RX-7's Questions about all aspects of single turbo setups.

Turbo Comparison... includes new 2015 turbos. see post one

Old 09-03-12, 05:26 PM
  #26  
Full Member
5 Year Member
 
linuslove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Summit, New Jersey
Posts: 103
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Great info. Thanks!
linuslove is offline  
Old 09-03-12, 05:28 PM
  #27  
Full Member
5 Year Member
 
linuslove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Summit, New Jersey
Posts: 103
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
NJ Your post

Think you
linuslove is offline  
Old 12-10-12, 08:23 PM
  #28  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thank you for all the information
Josh7331 is offline  
Old 10-07-13, 09:22 AM
  #29  
Full Member
10 Year Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: ccc
Posts: 191
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Is garrett T72 big for stock internal (plan of 14 psi)
BusaNostra is offline  
Old 10-11-13, 01:52 PM
  #30  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,302
Thanked 33 Times in 22 Posts
"Is garrett T72 big for stock internal (plan of 14 psi)"

yes. not necessarily because of the stock internals but because of your boost objective.

the mismatch would be very large. i suggest you look for a turbo w a compressor in the 6 square inch neighborhood.

howard
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 10-22-13, 07:49 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
rexset's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Santiago, Chile, South America
Posts: 534
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I recomend the garrett gtx35 with an 0.8 t3 exhaust housing
I have an gt3586 hta with 1.06 t4 and for now im working with 7psi at 3500 rpms is full boost
The only drawback os that i need a tial v60 wastegate to control that turbo at that psi
rexset is offline  
Old 11-02-13, 12:54 AM
  #32  
Junior Member
 
spooltomakeherdrool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
definitely good call
spooltomakeherdrool is offline  
Old 11-11-13, 07:54 PM
  #33  
Junior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 14
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
best set up
Many_107060 is offline  
Old 09-28-15, 06:52 AM
  #34  
Very Stable Genius
iTrader: (1)
 
WANKfactor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: omnipresent
Posts: 1,207
Thanked 61 Times in 54 Posts
Any word on the garrett gt-w line up. Any good?
WANKfactor is offline  
Old 09-28-15, 09:27 AM
  #35  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,302
Thanked 33 Times in 22 Posts
"Any word on the garrett gt-w line up. Any good?"

Garrett debuted the GTW line (the "W" is for Wide as in wide compressor map according to Garrett.... wide is good) at the PRI last December.

still no compressor maps on Garrett's website but they state the 62 is good for 800 (piston) hp which means the wheel will do 80 lbs per minute which is good for 600 rotary rwhp SAE.

this jibes w the BW SXE 62. i have the currently non releasable comp map...

just a mild concern re the GTW line.

the 62.3, 64.3 and 67.3 comp wheels share the same exducer diameter (84.4) this gives the 62 a trim of 54, the 64 a trim of 58, and the 67 a trim of 64. i am wondering about Garrett's level of engineering commitment here especially when most also use just one size hotside wheel.

it seems that Garrett has generally been a bit small on the hotside which might work well on a piston engine but not as well on a rotary.

that said i do own and have run a GT4094r which is a bit small on the hotside but i am greatly impressed by both the midrange power (403 SAE at 5000 rpm at 25 psi) as well as top end. one of my engines on Sep 11 made 614 SAE hp at no more than 26 psi on the GT4094r.

here is a comparison from post one between the BW and GTW. note hotside relationship.

BW S300 SXE 62-76..............................6.54.............. .......6.31.....................96 (2015)
PN 13009097056 my 500 hp value pick for 2015

BW S300 SXE 62-80..............................6.54.............. .......7.15..................109 (2015) PN 13009097053 hot wheel mis-matched IMO (too large, probably laggy)

GTW6262........................................... ........6.69......................5.38............ .......80 (2015 Garrett)

GTW6265........................................... .........6.69....................5.88............. .......88 (2015 Garrett)

my GT4094r, which also does 80 pounds per minute has a 6.4 sq inch hotside...

ATM, i don't believe we have any data on the GTW line so it remains a just looking at the specs proposition.

it is amazing in 2015 that we have Borg Warner, Garrett and Precision turbos that are close to the size of the original GT35r yet are probably capable of making 600 rotary rwhp.

i own a BW S300 SXE 62 and will be dynoing it w a .91 and 1.0 sometime this year.

Howard

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 09-28-15 at 11:34 AM.
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Howard Coleman CPR For This Useful Post:
MaD^94Rx7 (11-28-17)
Old 09-28-15, 06:20 PM
  #36  
Very Stable Genius
iTrader: (1)
 
WANKfactor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: omnipresent
Posts: 1,207
Thanked 61 Times in 54 Posts
Awesome info as always HC.

So it seems the latest turbochargers all flow more air for the size,
What would be the ideal turbo for 400hp @ 15psi these days?
WANKfactor is offline  
Old 09-29-15, 01:10 PM
  #37  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (19)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1,168
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by WANKfactor View Post
Awesome info as always HC.

So it seems the latest turbochargers all flow more air for the size,
What would be the ideal turbo for 400hp @ 15psi these days?


depends on a lot of things. I am making 400WHP at 1 bar and I am running a GT3574R. I would think a EFR 9180 could pull the same number and possibly an EFR 8374 and those will have wider powerbands. I have been debating which one I am swapping to.

Typically you want to run the smallest turbo possible for your power objective to gain in low end torque, but some of these larger turbo's (EFR series) can spool better than most other turbo's with inconel turbine wheels and run the same power at lower PSI, which I would choose since you can make the power more easily (better on turbo and engine with lower AIT).

I am addicted to response and boost thresholds that are low, but I also like how some of the turbo's power hit with a linear fashion and a smooth controlled.

I want a powerful yet soft power delivery. a smooth torque curve hence why I am so mixed up on between an EFR8374 and EFR 9180. not sure which curve I would like better. I am thinking the EFR 9180 might be a better selection for me as its closer to my GT3574R but has a little quicker boost threshold, and I can get a little more power at lower PSI.
lOOkatme is offline  
Old 09-29-15, 02:40 PM
  #38  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,302
Thanked 33 Times in 22 Posts
inconel V titanium aluminide

i spent a half day w Dan Barlog who is Chief Engineer for Precision Turbo at their facility in Indiana last January. Dan designs the compressor and turbine wheels for Precision as well as just about every other part in the GEN 2 CEA line. it is worth noting that in the ultra competitive NHRA Pro Mod class Precision has notched numerous wins.

as we were discussing turbine wheels i mentioned BW's titanium aluminide 40% lighter wheel.

i can still remember Dan's exact comment....

"we tried that material and found we could not cast it in our desired configuration so we picked flow over weight."

you may of course dismiss this as just the comment of a competitor but set in the context of my half day w Dan, IMO, i take it as an honest comment from his experience. they are no rookies as far as working materials.

for instance, a major aspect of their very competitive GEN 2 CEA billet compressor wheels is that they are forged into a closed die that aligns the grain of the material allowing them to employ a thinner vane and smaller hub.

i don't think we have scratched the surface as to evaluating the 2015 turbos.

HC
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 09-29-15, 05:37 PM
  #39  
Very Stable Genius
iTrader: (1)
 
WANKfactor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: omnipresent
Posts: 1,207
Thanked 61 Times in 54 Posts
Originally Posted by lOOkatme View Post
depends on a lot of things. I am making 400WHP at 1 bar and I am running a GT3574R. I would think a EFR 9180 could pull the same number and possibly an EFR 8374 and those will have wider powerbands. I have been debating which one I am swapping to.

Typically you want to run the smallest turbo possible for your power objective to gain in low end torque, but some of these larger turbo's (EFR series) can spool better than most other turbo's with inconel turbine wheels and run the same power at lower PSI, which I would choose since you can make the power more easily (better on turbo and engine with lower AIT).

I am addicted to response and boost thresholds that are low, but I also like how some of the turbo's power hit with a linear fashion and a smooth controlled.

I want a powerful yet soft power delivery. a smooth torque curve hence why I am so mixed up on between an EFR8374 and EFR 9180. not sure which curve I would like better. I am thinking the EFR 9180 might be a better selection for me as its closer to my GT3574R but has a little quicker boost threshold, and I can get a little more power at lower PSI.
What is the response like on the 3574? Does it pull all the way to the top?

So is there anything that stands out in particular on HC's beautifully comprehensive list between, say 7670, and gt35 (apart from cost prohibitive efr) that is efficient at low-boost 400whp?
WANKfactor is offline  
Old 09-29-15, 05:54 PM
  #40  
Rotary Porn Addict
iTrader: (2)
 
Rikk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 303
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Andy have you considered the EFR 9174?
Rikk is offline  
Old 09-30-15, 10:40 PM
  #41  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (19)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1,168
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by WANKfactor View Post
What is the response like on the 3574? Does it pull all the way to the top?

So is there anything that stands out in particular on HC's beautifully comprehensive list between, say 7670, and gt35 (apart from cost prohibitive efr) that is efficient at low-boost 400whp?


Depends on what you want. My GT3574R is a damn good turbo and I like it a lot. I just don't like the open dump wastegate anymore, otherwise I would throw on a 3.5" down pipe to quicken up the down low torque/power and be good. If I had to choose from a non-EFR turbo I would choose a GT3574R or TD61R. its response is great, could use a little more oomph between 3-4K rpms, turbo makes GREAT power, I run a .84 T4 divided housing and it does not choke the top end at all. I think my car if 400WHP +/- 20WHP depending on altitude and weather at 14.5 PSI, at 17PSI it feels like 450-500WHP. by comparing to other cars this confirms my beliefs, I am guessing this based off pulls against other cars and fuel use of my total fuel capacity (injector duty cycle). I gained a ton of low/mid end and power going to a V-mount and putting the filter in the bumper opening. like 40-50WHP.

BW S300 SXE 62-76 that looks to have good wheel sizes but not a fan of journal bearings.


EFR wise, I am liking the look of the efr 9180 .92 A/R IWG. I will probably choose this for mine and run a 3.5" down pipe with long intake and large intake filter in the front bumper. I really want the IWG and the reliability of the wategate design. its simplier as well and I can get rid of the BOV on the intercooler piping, eliminate the boost controller and run it on my powerFC, more efficient and reliable cast manifold, etc, etc, etc. Losing the weight on the turbine wheel is a huge for torque down low. it spools great. I rode in an EFR8374 and it spools very very well, if a 9180 is anywhere near that I will be happy. I still think it will out spool my GT3574R, and from what I have heard from other tuners and users of EFR turbo's is the 9180 does in fact spool quicker and has a very nice linear power delivery while the 8374 can be a little too snappy/twitchy at times.

here are the torque delivery of some turbo's for comparison. I saw an EFR IWG 8374 ran at 18-15.5 which had almost the same torque curve as the efr 9180 IWG, but the 9180 was on an fc, long runner system, I think the 9180 on the short runner cast manifold with 3.5" DP FD engine will be really good.
Attached Thumbnails Turbo Comparison... includes new 2015 turbos. see post one-turbo-comparison.jpg  

Last edited by lOOkatme; 09-30-15 at 10:58 PM.
lOOkatme is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 05:11 AM
  #42  
Very Stable Genius
iTrader: (1)
 
WANKfactor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: omnipresent
Posts: 1,207
Thanked 61 Times in 54 Posts
Hmm, thanks for the insight.I was kinda thinking along the same lines with the gt35 and td61r. On the efr 8374, when you say snappy, can that not be controlled easily with throttle control? I would have thought that super responsiveness would be easier to control than a laggy turbo that isnt there when you need it but sneaks up on you when you dont?
WANKfactor is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 05:35 AM
  #43  
Senior Member
 
Marf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sussex, UK
Posts: 300
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lookatme, could you post up specs for each of the torque plots in your graph?

fuel type, boost level, type of exhaust etc etc?
Marf is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 08:42 AM
  #44  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (19)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1,168
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by WANKfactor View Post
Hmm, thanks for the insight.I was kinda thinking along the same lines with the gt35 and td61r. On the efr 8374, when you say snappy, can that not be controlled easily with throttle control? I would have thought that super responsiveness would be easier to control than a laggy turbo that isnt there when you need it but sneaks up on you when you dont?
I am just quoting someone who has an EFR 8374 from this website. his is an external wastegate model. I have ridden in an efr 7670 EWG and I can understand what some of the people mean. It hits very hard all at once and will break the tires loose pretty easily. Also remember that I am used to a GT3574R and the power delivery of this turbo and I like it since I am used to it. I would want a turbo that is similar to it but still a little more quick spooling down low, I would say my turbo is alive and well above 3.5K rpms to 4K rpms....that is when it starts moving.

I had a short ram hot air intake a while back with a FMIC and upright radiator. when I had this design the turbo made less power and had less low end and mid range. I converted last winter to a V-mount and a long CAI with a HUGE air filter in the bumper. The set up lowered my AIT's by 10-20C and I felt a lot more low end and mid range punch. the power delivery became more linear and easier to drive with more power everywhere. It felt like it smoothed out the power delivery from low end to top end. The power delivery is strong and linear so it feels controlled and predictable. before it was more of an on/off switch where the ramp into power was more abrupt. the efr 7670 when floored is more of an abrupt hit, the efr 8374 is pretty smooth as well and probably could be controlled with your right foot. I think the IWG models make the power delivery easier to drive and smooth out the torque curves over the external wastegate models.

I am swapping set ups to basically simplify and quite the car, and by looking at the efr 9180 IWG dyno's and comparing it to the efr 8374 IWG at same PSI, I don't really see a huge gain in low end power, there is some, but its not HUGE, and the power is gained at 3K rpms only, I want the turbo to not be a huge spooler in the 2K rpms for better MPG, my 3574R doesn't boost much down low either. we have tons of mountains here and I perfer to have the turbo alive and well above 3K up and below its not a huge deal, since we have uphill or downhill roads I perfer to not be boosting the hell out of the engine down low for better MPG.

I also like the large hot side of the 9180 to get the heat out of the engine, we also stress turbo's more up here so running a larger turbo would be better to make power. the 3574R is a great turbo, I actually like it a lot, but plumbing the system back into the downpipe would be a pain and costly, more costly than buying an EFR 9180 IWG and doing it all with that. so I figured to go to the efr 9180 and sell my current set up. Plus I was in the GB for the cast manifold and its a great reliability upgrade (no welds, and better performance with matched port design).

I have taken the philosophy of making my car simplier and more reliable while focusing on performance. Performance for me is making the car perform at a higher level of performance while making the car more predictable.

What I have found with my car are these mods have been the most important for making a more reliable, faster, more predictable car.
wide wheels with slightly stretched tires (18x11.5" wide wheels with 285 tires).
soft springs with high CD damping settings (8/6 rates with high damping ratios (firm)).
linear wide power band with predictable soft inputs. (sometimes snappy inputs can disrupt balance of the car).

I think I like the power delivery of the efr 9180 IWG the most. look at the torque curves and how it never ramps steeply. I like those types of torque curves. Sometimes having the most responsive turbo isn't the most desireable, although an EFR 7670 has benefits of making the torque earlier and dropping off later. it's just things you need to get used to and learn how to drive. This is just my preference based off where I live and how I drive.

Last edited by lOOkatme; 10-01-15 at 08:57 AM.
lOOkatme is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 08:51 AM
  #45  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (19)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1,168
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Marf View Post
Lookatme, could you post up specs for each of the torque plots in your graph?

fuel type, boost level, type of exhaust etc etc?

EFR 9180 is the FC that Turblown dyno's. long runner FC engine, he ran a FMIC with smaller diameter piping, 4" downpipe. 17-15.5 PSI

EFR 8374 was Jacob Cartmill's car at 12PSI, IWG, 3" downpipe, V-mount configuration.

GT3574R Unsure of set up, 3" DP I believe if I can remember. Mulitple PSI runs

EFR 7670 - Speedjunkie's car, 3" downpipe, external wastegate, V-mount, Syvecs ecu. Multiple PSI runs


To make generalities, what I have gathered from these dyno's is the largest factor for spool is the IWG, more direct complete pressure/heat on the short runner goes into the turbo and spools it faster, larger downpipe obviously a plus, typically longer CAI with large filters shift power lower and smooths out delivery, small V-mount is preferred.

I don't see much difference in terms of power and torque between the EFR 9180 and EFR 8374 at the same PSI and IWG models. I would think they are very close run on the same system with short runner manifold.

Attached are the dyno's I am comparing both run at similar boost levels. The unlabeled graph is a torque graph comparing the two.
Attached Thumbnails Turbo Comparison... includes new 2015 turbos. see post one-9180%2520t4%2520iwg%2520rx7%2520dyno.jpg   Turbo Comparison... includes new 2015 turbos. see post one-zach837415_5psi.jpg   Turbo Comparison... includes new 2015 turbos. see post one-untitled.jpg  

Last edited by lOOkatme; 10-01-15 at 09:01 AM.
lOOkatme is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 11:06 AM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
Marf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sussex, UK
Posts: 300
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Interesting about the EWG/IWG spool differences, I was trying to work out why the 7670 was being outspooled
Marf is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 03:29 PM
  #47  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (19)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1,168
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Marf View Post
Interesting about the EWG/IWG spool differences, I was trying to work out why the 7670 was being outspooled
I think it deals with the EWG and IWG......also you need to check on where the engine fits inside the compressor efficiency of the map, Also, spool and HP/torque are different, one can "outspool" the other in terms of PSI, but put out less WHP/Torque.
lOOkatme is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 03:56 PM
  #48  
Lives on the Forum
iTrader: (9)
 
BLUE TII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 7,006
Thanked 131 Times in 115 Posts

I just want to point out the 8374 is on pump gas and the 9180 is on E85 mix. Everyone keeps ignoring this.




I don't see much difference in terms of power and torque between the EFR 9180 and EFR 8374 at the same PSI and IWG models. I would think they are very close run on the same system with short runner manifold.



BLUE TII is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 04:11 PM
  #49  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (19)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1,168
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post

I just want to point out the 8374 is on pump gas and the 9180 is on E85 mix. Everyone keeps ignoring this.




I don't see much difference in terms of power and torque between the EFR 9180 and EFR 8374 at the same PSI and IWG models. I would think they are very close run on the same system with short runner manifold.



Does that mean super advanced ignition timing to spool the turbo quicker? I am not familiar with the differences between tuning the two?

I would think the spool up would be similar given the same boost levels (between e85 and pump).
lOOkatme is offline  
Old 10-01-15, 06:41 PM
  #50  
Brap Brap, Fap Fap
iTrader: (7)
 
Shainiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lyme, CT
Posts: 1,470
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
More advance usually slows spool because there's less burning going on in the turbine and lower EGTs.
The advantage E85 would have is more mass flowing past the turbine because of the additional fuel required.
Shainiac is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Turbo Comparison... includes new 2015 turbos. see post one


Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: