T60-1 turbo kit
 

What are your opinions of this kit.

T60-1 Turbo kit: The turbo kit comes with a Turbonetics T60-1 turbo, HKS cast iron turbo manifold, stainless steel down-pipe, HKS standard 40mm waste-gate, oil feed line, oil return line, oil return block-off plate, misc hardware for a bolt on installation.

compressor inducer 2.32"
compressor major 3.00"
compressor inlet 4.00"
turbine exducer 2.55"
turbine major 2.92"
A/R .84

50mm waste-gate

So how much power can I expect from 15 to 18 psi?

Should I upgrade to a T62 to achieve above the watermark of 400rwhp?

Considering I have a healthy engine.

Garrett

I have a 60-1 on my streetported T-II. It is very easily capable of 400 rwhp at 15 psi of boost. My setup is much different than what you are talking about though. Is the exhaust on that a P trim? A .84 a/r on a P trim is awfully small and isn't going to help you in the power department. I also don't like cast log style manifolds. A good manifold design is absolutely fundamental in producing good power and fast spool up times. Your manifold, due to its inefficiency, may require a small a/r though to retain fairly quick spool up. Is your engine stock or is it ported? This all sounds like an easy upgrade on a stock engine but I'm not sure if it will do what you would like it to. On my engine, I have a clipped P trim exhaust wheel with a 1.15 a/r (I think?) divided housing. It is on a stainless steel tubular manifold. This still spools up very quickly on my streetport and makes wonderful power. The 60-1 is capable of 400+ rwhp at 15 psi but in that setup I can't accurately say. There are so many things other than compressor size which make huge differences.

Is there something specific about this cast manifold that makes it ineffcient? I'm not familiar with this manifold in particular, but it is a common misconception that cast manifolds are inefficient due to their bulky design and ugly appearence. Cast manifolds can (in some cases) be more efficient than tubular ones. Most of the time a Tubular manifold is constructed as a cost effective method of "building" a manifold to fit custom applications, with the proper flanges. Most people and small companys don't have the resourses to manufacture cast manifolds for specific applications.

The reason a cast manifold can be as efficient (if not more) than a tubular style mani, is by retaining the heat energy inside the runners, increasing the velocity of the air. Sometimes people try to duplicate this by wrapping their manifolds. In the DSM community, there aren't too many manifolds that will out perform a ported 2G stock unit. And I would think a HKS would create a manifold that would do the job, and could maybe be ported to further this? That's why is ask, is this HKS manifold specifically crappy? Or do you just not perfer the ugly logs? ;)

If the log manifold isn't equal length, you are losing power. Period. A turbo needs a proper length exhaust just as much as a non turbo does. The HKS has several flaws. The first of which is that there is no equal length anything in it. The 2 exhaust ports just dump into a common chamber and their gasses are chaotically mixed around until they flow out to the turbo. The front rotor almost fires directly at the turbo while the rear one hits a wall. The wastegate is on the back of the manifold behind the rear exhaust port. A wastegate favoring one port is worthless. This is the single biggest error I see with the import crowd. So many people put a wastegate on 1 runner foolishly thinking that it is just bleeding off pressure. It isn't. It needs to promote good flow too since this is where you want the exhaust gasses to go when the gate is open. It has a hard time doing this if it isn't placed properly. I see many people argue this point but anyone saying it is only a pressure phenomenon should probably stick to bicycles since they know nothing about cars. If it is a shop that believes this then I just forget they even exist since they are no longer credible. A properly designed tubular manifold is hard to beat. All of the fastest cars use them. A cast piece would be preferred if designed properly due to heat retention but seldom are they designed properly. The biggest problem is that you can give an idiot a welder and a pipe and he can physically build a manifold that looks neat but will it work good? Too many tubular manfiolds are on the market from soley a money making and not performance standpoint and the reason that some don't perform good is designer error. Most cast manifolds are made from easy to make molds that are fairly simplistic because it would be expensive to be otherwise. They also know that if there is a brand name on it people will buy it.

I do know of 1 good cast manifold for the 13B. It is the stock turbo manifold for the S5 2nd gen. It is a very good design. In contrast the manifold it replaced (S4) was horrific. The turbo exhaust was smaller slighly on the older ones yet they spooled up slower. It was all about the manifold not the turbo. I compare the HKS to the lousy S4 manifold. It is probably better but the point is still made. A proper manifold is essential to performance.

If no one else has mentioned it by now, I'll do ti :D

BDC made 425+ rwhp on ~ 18psi with the HKS cast iron manifold and a .96 undivided exhaust housing... and that was with a 60-1hifi, not a 60-1. It is possible to make good power with the HKS log manifold.. but that is not saying he would not have done better with a properly designed tubular manifold.

I know Brian and he did it at 16 psi which is very impressive. I have been urging him for years to get rid of that damn thing (HKS log manifold) so he can get some really high numbers. He is a good example of someone who is actually using the right turbo for the job instead of the biggest one or what everyone recommends. Even the T-04B that everyone hates can in fact produce well over 400+ rwhp at decent boost levels. Everyone always says it can't do more than 350 on a rotary but this is bs. Brian does everything the way it should be done. He knows that velocity and not volume is what makes power and that tuning is everything. I trust Brian's opinions over anyone else's here regardless of if they are a shop owner or otherwise.

A-spec makes a nice 60-1 kit you should try and give them a call.

rotarygod, i'm positive that he was at more than 16psi. He squeaked every last bit possible out of his setup... his injectors were running wide open and I'm certain he was running 18psi... but 18 vs 16 really isn't a big deal... especially when both of them are out of the effeciency range of the turbocharger (for the most part)... I think BDC's Air to Water IC helped him pull such a fantastic reading.

So we agree that both aftermarket tubular and cast manifolds can be designed poorly. My point was simply, between two manifolds with identical runner design, the cast would be slightly more effcient. Like I said, I was not familiar with HKS's cast manifold. It doesn't suprise me though, their products span both sides of the "quality spectrum".

Yep that was the whole point.

I plan on going with the following:

To4S 60-1 compressor side
.96 divided p-trim turbine side
SS fully divided manifold
360 degree thrust bearing
dynamic seal
40mm Standard HKS WG(is this big enough?)

I am going to have a fresh streetported engine, can I get to 425+ to the wheels easily if tuned well at 15psi? Is there ANY reason to upgrade to a 62-1 wheel? I know there are lots of variables, but I want something that will easily give me the 400rwhp @ 15psi and spool quickly. If I can run race gas and turn the boost to 20psi, I would love to be able to get close to 450. Should I go with a wet center? Anything you would change? Thanks.

You don't need the 62 wheel. I've got the 60-1 w/ a .84 turbine. I put down 408rhwp at 15psi in 104 deg ambient heat on pump gas. I think w/ reasonable temps, a bigger A/R, race gas and more boost, you would easily get 450 or more. The 60-1 compressor has plenty of oats. I've pulled 20psi to redline(don't ask me how :eek: )

Oh, I have the HKS/SR Motorsports cast divided manifold.

s

Your cast manifold IS an example of a good cast one. I just don't like the non divided cast units.

When do you hit full boost?

And is that at .84 compressor A/R?

Thanks for the replies. I am still researching and trying to decide what I'm gonna get.

Does anyone have a T04S XS kit on a 3rd gen. What are your experiences with it? Are you looking for a bigger turbo or does this kit fulfill all the acceleration needs.

Garrett

Welp,

I just sent a certified check in the mail to the RX-7 Store for the TO4S kit. I'll will be keeping ya'll posted on the install and how it does once I have it running. If I can figure out how to post pics on this shit I'll do that also.

Thanks for all the information. Every bit was invaluable as either useful solid information, personal opinions or hype about a particular set-up. I dug through all the good and bad. I settled on this one because it seemed to fit all of the compromises I needed to make. Those included my urge to go really big, wanting a reasonable spool up, water-cooled, 1.0 exhaust A/R and lastly; it is polished.

I guess now I have taken the big plunge. Hope I can stay afloat in this single turbo land.;)

Garrett

What do you think of this manifold layout?
 

I pulled this off my 94 Puerto Rican car. What do you think of the layout?

what is a "TII" ?

what kind of manifold do you recommend on a 87 turbo2?

I dunno what all this bashing on the HKS cast manifolds is about...
It's cheap, and most people are not willing to spend horrendous amounts of money for a better design or have the resources to make a tube one themselves.&nbsp $300 for the HKS collected version is a bargain.&nbsp This unit will outlast ANY tube turbo exhaust manifold, period.&nbsp There is something to be said about reliability in your parts for some people, so you can't ignore that point.

The HKS cast divided turbo exhaust manifold is just as bad as their collected version.&nbsp It is not equal runner for both front and rear rotor and only one of the wastegate passages is optimal for exhaust gas exiting - the other one is downright bad.&nbsp If you're going to rag the HKS cast turbo manifolds, at least be consistent and bag on BOTH of them.

I would recommend running the largest wastegate you can get your hands on.&nbsp These rotary engines spit out a lot of exhaust gases, and trying to save a couple hundred dollars could reward you with boost creep and a dead engine.&nbsp We typically run HKS GT 60mm, HKS Race 50mm, or Tial 46mm units on all 13B set-ups.


-Ted

A larger wastegate isn't necessarly the best wastegate usually the lower the boost you want to maintain the larger the wastgate you would choose to run, (although most people on here aren't running monster boost anyway so I guess larger would be better), it is much more important how it goes in and comes out than the actual size, but this of coarse would all be based on not running the manifold were speaking of also.It's late I'll shutup.I'm talking in circles.

NO, .70 compressor.

I think Ted's right but there is a definite improvment w/ the divided mani over the standard HKS non-divided. Compared to a buddies non, mine spools quicker by about 500 rpm's. I think it's making a little bit more pk hp as well. We both have/he had, the same exact 60-1 and similar streetports.

did they sound different?