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Skeese’s E85 Fuel System for 750 RWHP Thread

Old 07-28-16, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
I currently have the odyssey PC680 but am planning to get a bigger battery and relocate it to the rear bin before the motor gets here while also sending my alternator off to IRP for their 90 to 140 amp alternator upgrade. Seems legit to me and the price isn't bad.

-Skeese
This is very simular to my first alternator and battery setup when going to the multi pump 6 injector setup. I used the IRP 140amp with a optima red top. The alternator died on me. I had it rebuilt locally back to the 140amp spec and it died on me again. After that I switched to a 180amp from ebay and switched to a largest odyssey that would fit in my battery box in the rear hatch. Also had the alternator tested and verified it is indeed a legit 180amp unit. Have about a year on this set up before taking the car down for a fresh motor.
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Old 07-28-16, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Neutron View Post
This is very simular to my first alternator and battery setup when going to the multi pump 6 injector setup. I used the IRP 140amp with a optima red top. The alternator died on me. I had it rebuilt locally back to the 140amp spec and it died on me again. After that I switched to a 180amp from ebay and switched to a largest odyssey that would fit in my battery box in the rear hatch. Also had the alternator tested and verified it is indeed a legit 180amp unit. Have about a year on this set up before taking the car down for a fresh motor.
Are you sure it was the alternator? Not a fan of Optimas
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Old 07-28-16, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TomU View Post
Are you sure it was the alternator? Not a fan of Optimas
Was definitely the alternator. Battery tested fine. I put it in my daily after switching to the Odyssey and have not had an issue with it.
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Old 07-28-16, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Neutron View Post
Was definitely the alternator. Battery tested fine. I put it in my daily after switching to the Odyssey and have not had an issue with it.
Once you've been in the car audio world and you learn about what works with huge amplifiers and CB radios, there's only one real choice for alternators... DC Power Engineering.

For a 13b, you're going to want a Subaru 2.2L Outback alternator with 180 deg mounting pegs. 270A is what I'm running. XP Series. When you see just how much thought went into the design of this chassis, you'll realize why I chose it for a rotary... Damn near zero AC Ripple?!? YUUUUSSSS

https://www.dcpowerinc.com/vafproduc...engine=2.2L+H4

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Old 07-28-16, 07:55 PM
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I had to look them up. Good god are they fancy. A fella like myself with shallow pockets can only dream.
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Old 07-29-16, 07:49 PM
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The big issue with those is that they are $600+ for an alternator. In a perfect world I'd have a super custom surge tank setup in combo with an ATL fuel cell, a custom 900 amp alternator, oh and a four rotor. I'll look into what other options are out there, but $600 alternator is more of an upgrade kinda thing once I have a running car.

So I did get my sump welded on.









I'm going to have to figure out how to clean up the inside of the tank around the weld burn and then get it coated or something. Not looking to mail it to the moon for special martian coating or anything ridiculous. Any suggestions on how to handle this to best clean up the weld on the inside so it won't rust OR have particles flake off and clog the filters/pumps?

-Skeese
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Old 08-01-16, 07:51 AM
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looks to me like they didn't use any purge gas inside the tank.
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Old 08-02-16, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by diesel dakota View Post
looks to me like they didn't use any purge gas inside the tank.
Agree, and I am guessing its because of the cost involved in purging something of that size.

Also OP - Careful with the coatings, make sure that it will not react (peel off) when the tank if full of E85
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Old 08-02-16, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by KNONFS View Post
Agree, and I am guessing its because of the cost involved in purging something of that size.

Also OP - Careful with the coatings, make sure that it will not react (peel off) when the tank if full of E85
Thanks. I've been looking into that to see what type of coating I'll need to use.

I've hit a hold point with my fuel system build, or at least the physical build aspect of it. I ended up swapping rims/tires which ate into my fuel budget. Plan is to get the tank sealed and externally coated this month as well as buy the dual 044 I'll be using and test fit everything on the side of the tank. I'll be buying the pumps the first of September and then running the lines from tank to engine bay.

I still haven't been able to find anything about how merging the two lines into once causes a reduction in flow so unless I can find some proof of that that warrants another solution I'm still going to plan on going this route.

I found this vibrant push lock hose on summit that claims to be compatible with E85. Its made out of nitrile rubber, is rated for -30 degrees F to 160 degrees F, has a maximum operating pressure of 250 psi, and is super cheap compared to the other options.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpe-16330/overview/

The fragola PTFE line is literally 3.5X as much as the vibrant hose itself excluding fittings. I'm wondering if this would actually be suitable to use on the sump to pump suction lines and then on the main feed line running to the engine bay? I'll give vibrant a call today and see what they say about it. I'm by no means sold on this, I just think for the price it is worth looking into.

-Skeese
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Old 08-03-16, 04:49 PM
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So I wasn't able to get on the phone with Vibrant today, but I should be able to tomorrow. I did however map out the cost of going with the Fragola PTFE line vs the Vibrant E85 'rated' flex hose and push lock fittings from the sump ends to the engine bay including return line from the bay.

Fragola PTFE W/ Fittings: $598.49
Vibrant Flex W/ Push Fittings: $238.41

Soooooo the fancy hose setup is 2.5+ times as expensive as the vibrant push lock setup. Keep in mind this doesn't include the fittings and hose in the engine bay. I'm going to get ahold of vibrant tomorrow and ask them a bunch of questions about this product and will go from there. I believe in function over form, and this may be a valid option.

Any opposed or having input please let me know! Given the price point difference I would be able to pick up this setup and start assembly very soon instead of waiting.

-Skeese
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Old 08-03-16, 11:48 PM
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How come you dont consider the e85 friendly hard anodised aluminum hardlines for the fuel setup? Alot cheaper than ptfe hose and it will outlive the car.
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Old 08-04-16, 02:56 AM
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It's a good idea, Mike. If I build another rotary again, I'd have 2 fuel systems in parallel. One for primary w/ 91 fuel for cruising, another for E85/race gas for secondaries (for safe power).

Anyone else done this?


Originally Posted by j9fd3s View Post
i have an idea, and feel free to shoot it down, as i have no idea how easy this would be to implement this in real life.

why not run 2 fuel systems? basis for the idea is Howard not liking that manifold linking the two pumps

use the factory lines, in tank pump setup etc, but only run it to the primary fuel rail.

then, for the second pump, it then runs though the sump, with a second set of lines etc to the secondary fuel rail.

the pro's are that each fuel system is pretty optimal for flow, and of course you can shut off the secondary side when its idling/cruising. cost shouldn't be too bad, as you use existing (reliable!) stuff for half of it.

the con of course is that its complicated, and you basically have 2x the failure points. space might be a problem too.
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Old 08-04-16, 03:48 AM
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wtf?

Serious the cost 2 fuel system (2 tanks, 2 sets of line, 2 pumps) will kill the cost compared to a bit of fuel line. E85 is cheap HP in the bigger scheme of things. Just do it right the first time.
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Old 08-04-16, 05:56 AM
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dude, it's not that outlandish. It's a good option for people who don't have easy access to race fuel or E85, this way you only use it under boost. 91 pump is still most economical and available for just getting around.

The only added complexity here is the 2 tanks.. everything else is about same. It's a pretty ideal scenario for me at least.

Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
wtf?

Serious the cost 2 fuel system (2 tanks, 2 sets of line, 2 pumps) will kill the cost compared to a bit of fuel line. E85 is cheap HP in the bigger scheme of things. Just do it right the first time.
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Old 08-04-16, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
wtf?

Serious the cost 2 fuel system (2 tanks, 2 sets of line, 2 pumps) will kill the cost compared to a bit of fuel line. E85 is cheap HP in the bigger scheme of things. Just do it right the first time.
easy on the WTF's, mate. Lots of good ideas were ridiculed by people who can't think outside the box.

If you really think about it, burning low-density, and low-availability E85 just for cruising around is actually not that ideal.
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Old 08-04-16, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rx7jocke View Post
How come you dont consider the e85 friendly hard anodised aluminum hardlines for the fuel setup? Alot cheaper than ptfe hose and it will outlive the car.
I wouldn't be against it, I just never looked into it and was still in the keep it simple don't reinvent the wheel mind-set. That being said, I could likely source any form of aluminum tubing and bend it through work for super super cheap. I'll look into the idea. That is one of the few good things about having to wait 5 months on a motor, you get to really check out all your options and ultimately do it right.

Originally Posted by chohakai View Post
It's a good idea, Mike. If I build another rotary again, I'd have 2 fuel systems in parallel. One for primary w/ 91 fuel for cruising, another for E85/race gas for secondaries (for safe power).

Anyone else done this?
While this is a good idea in theory, I think that the ECU work behind the scenes would cause too many failure points. I wouldn't want to lean on a flex fuel sensor to auto-correct the fuel sprayed based on E85 content as that wasn't what it was designed for and I doubt it would be able to react anywhere near as quickly as the throttle plates snapping open and the turbo spooling boost. This would leave you with either tuning a map that had fuel in idle/cruise/vacuum for 91-93 and then transitioning in coordination with the fuel change to ~35% more fuel by X boost. Horridly over-complicated and while it may possibly work for idle and WOT conditions, tuning this kinda setup for drive-ability would be extremely difficult. Last option being a dual map setup where a trigger, such as reaching 5 PSI causes the ECU to swap from the pump gas map to the E85 map and spray more fuel. I think this too would be horridly over-complicated.

Both methods would likely have unique fluid dynamic issues on top of this. The only viable option to have this even work that I see would be for both pumps to run full time and have a solenoid valve flip on transition causing the intended fuel to flow to the engine and other fuel to return that fuel to its respective tank. The timing of valve one closing and valve two opening would have to be staged such that there was overlap so that you wouldn't end up with a dry period during the transfer. It only takes one lean condition to grenade something expensive.

I think the actual mechanics of it combined with with tuning issues you'd run into would cause it to be over-complicated beyond worth. I'd opt for something simple that works 100% of the time.

This extended pointless post brought to you by my recent tuning separation that I've suffered as a result of my water seal failure.

Anyways....the outstanding questions still are:

Opinions on the vibrant nitride rubber hose? or any other push lock fitting E85 hose?

Feed line size from pump discharges into Y fitting and Y fitting to engine bay?


Thanks guys

-Skeese
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Old 08-04-16, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by chohakai View Post
easy on the WTF's, mate. Lots of good ideas were ridiculed by people who can't think outside the box.

If you really think about it, burning low-density, and low-availability E85 just for cruising around is actually not that ideal.
yes its a WTF.
1 fuel flex sensor = problem solved.
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Old 08-04-16, 09:56 PM
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I ended up using Raceflux hose for my recent fuel system revamp with e85 in mind. it's viton lined for e85 compatibility.

RaceFlux Lightweight Viton Racing Hose for Fuel and Oil, -6AN RH1-06
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Old 08-04-16, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by eage8 View Post
I ended up using Raceflux hose for my recent fuel system revamp with e85 in mind. it's viton lined for e85 compatibility.

RaceFlux Lightweight Viton Racing Hose for Fuel and Oil, -6AN RH1-06
That's what I'm going with, or T1R Race Development's offerings.
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Old 08-05-16, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
yes its a WTF.
1 fuel flex sensor = problem solved.
there's no problem in the first place. The point here is that you're still lugging around wasting E85 (which is not very convenient at my location) with limited range and poor economy on primaries when you could be running pump fuel in these off boost conditions.

There's nothing wrong with the concept, the devil is in the details. At some point I may play this, until then there isn't much time talking about it here with Yobbos..

Last edited by chohakai; 08-05-16 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 08-05-16, 05:17 AM
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^Not very convenient at location. 7pts in 35mi radius.

Last edited by RGHTBrainDesign; 08-05-16 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 08-05-16, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by eage8 View Post
I ended up using Raceflux hose for my recent fuel system revamp with e85 in mind. it's viton lined for e85 compatibility.

RaceFlux Lightweight Viton Racing Hose for Fuel and Oil, -6AN RH1-06
Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
That's what I'm going with, or T1R Race Development's offerings.
I hesitate to venture to far away from the main top tier manufactures as I keep seeing all this cheap knock off hose out there claiming to be up to spec, that being said the Viton race hose seems to have some legit specs. I think T1R probably makes a solid product too, but their website doesn't list any specs or anything related to the inner tube material, simply "compatible with all fuel types" which is what they used to say about standard fuel hose before E85 became a big thing.

Originally Posted by chohakai View Post
there's no problem in the first place. The point here is that you're still lugging around wasting E85 (which is not very convenient at my location) with limited range and poor economy on primaries when you could be running pump fuel in these off boost conditions.

There's nothing wrong with the concept, the devil is in the details. At some point I may play this, until then there isn't much time talking about it here with Yobbos..
This setup deserves its own thread for planning to include fluid delivery, system staging, and ECU tuning and input/output controls to drive it.

Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
I commute to SF every weekend for work. There's no shortage of e85 stations in the area and they're all close to the mountains anyways (which is where you should be driving you car).
Not your call to make. Not your car, and you aren't driving it.

Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
There's one under a mile from my house. Another is 20mi or so from that one. Google: "Propel Fuels" and do a search for SF. There's 7 in the Bay Area alone...
Again, not your car. The issue was obviously not with availability but more so burning E85 in an ideal condition (idle/cruise/vacuum) where you would get optimum results from another fuel and then using E85 when its fluid properties would benefit the motor, cooling aside.

Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
No excuse, they're everywhere... Even my FB has a 16.5 gal fuel tank, and Abel Ibarra and I can squeeze 10mpg mixed or so out on e85 no problem (hoping for 20mpg mixed on 91).
Again, not your car. They may be everywhere but that wasn't his point or the point of the system. Just because somebody wants to do something that you don't, doesn't mean its wrong or that there should be an excuse. Are you tuning your car or Abel? You give a ton of input on tuning and ECU setup so I figured you were doing it or had experience tuning, but if you are taking it to Abel I would imagine he would do it all without tuning input, as he doesn't need tuning input.

Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
Here's how I'm approaching this:
  • 91 for long distance travels
  • Adaptronic w/ 3D Map of Wastegate vs. Ethanol Content and GM Gen 2 Flex Fuel Sensor
  • Fully Tuned Car on 91 Octane
  • Fully Tuned Car on e85
  • Partially Tuned on steps in-between of various ethanol contents to make sure the engine is safe (it's not as linear as you'd think)
  • e85 for canyon carving and track day usage

How am I making sure this is as close to fail-safe as possible?

Fuel Pressure Damper on Fuel Rail
Digital Pressure Sensor on FPR
Dual EGT Sensors (Pre-Turbo)
MAP and EMAP (Ratios are logged)
Direct Fire w/ Custom Dwell Tables
That is great and all for your build thread...but has nothing to do with my pursuit, design, or build of a 750 RWHP fuel system nor does it answer any of the questions I keep posing time and time again and it continually deters the thread from the intended purpose. I've got a set target and date and I'm in the business of making moves and making **** happen. Personally I think there are holes in your setup and overkill where it is completely non-necessary, but if you'd like to discuss that please PM me or start a thread.

Will be under the car all weekend, sump in car pictures to come. Will be marking the passenger side of the tank for the location of where I will be mounting the pumps. I need to make sure they will fit.

-Skeese
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Old 08-06-16, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
I hesitate to venture to far away from the main top tier manufactures as I keep seeing all this cheap knock off hose out there claiming to be up to spec, that being said the Viton race hose seems to have some legit specs. I think T1R probably makes a solid product too, but their website doesn't list any specs or anything related to the inner tube material, simply "compatible with all fuel types" which is what they used to say about standard fuel hose before E85 became a big thing.
completely understandable. but improved racing makes some great stuff and I trust what they sell/make.

http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=22479.15
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Old 08-06-16, 01:40 AM
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As far as the Y fitting goes, there are other options for duel 044's. They make fuel manifolds, kinda like a large fuel rail for duel 044's that actually use the OEM check valves. This is working well for me and is by far the cleanest install. I would think this is the most efficient output you could possibly get as well but your mounting of the pumps would have to take this into account. The added cost of the manifold compared to the Y fitting is actually cheaper since you can use the OEM check valves. There are a ton of options out there that also come with mounting brackets for for external mounting with different input and output options. Just google search duel 044 fuel manifold and you will be overwhelmed with possibilities. I will link my older install below as well.

Also - if you are going to use the push lock style hose, be sure to use compatible crimp clamps on all hose ends. I know that they rate these fittings and hoses at a pretty high pressure rating. I use a similar product to the vibrant stuff for in tank pluming and have had issues with fully seated hoses blowing off. My tuner says it is pretty common and he sees it happen all the time. Using the proper crimp clamp corrected the issue.

Link to my install. It's old and a bit different now but you will get the idea of how the fuel manifold works:

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...stall-1003565/

Last edited by Neutron; 08-06-16 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 08-28-16, 05:48 PM
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why didnt you go just go with an AI SP800?

we have already done what your trying to do

efr 9180 semi pp
made 703 on 30psi
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