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-   -   rich w/ advanced timing vs. lean w/ retarded timing (https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/rich-w-advanced-timing-vs-lean-w-retarded-timing-714385/)

arghx 12-19-07 04:17 PM

rich w/ advanced timing vs. lean w/ retarded timing
 
The author of these two articles essentially argues that, given enough octane it seems, you are both safer and making more power by retarding timing presumably during peak load/combustion pressure. The safety of the retarded timing should allow you to run a leaner mixture, which in turn yields more power. Running richer is safer not so much because it cools combustion, but because it slows the flame-front.

These two articles written by one of the main guys at Innovate Motorsports, which of course sells all sorts of tuning products including widebands:

Some quotes:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php


Because air has a specific heat of about 1 kJ/kg*deg K, the air charge is only 3.8 C (or K) degrees cooler for the rich mixture compared to the optimum power mixture. This small difference has very little effect on knock or power output.

Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/myths.php


If the mixture is ignited to early, the piston is still moving up towards TDC as the pressure from the burning mixture builds. This has several effects:

The pressure buildup before TDC tries to turn the engine backward, costing power.
The point where the pressure in the cylinder peaks is much closer to TDC, with the result of less mechanical leverage on the crankshaft (less power) and also causes MUCH higher pressure peaks and temperatures, leading to knock.

Many people with aftermarket turbos don't change the spark advance very much, believing that earlier spark creates more power. To combat knock they make the mixture richer. All that happens really then is that the mixture burns slower and therefore hits the peak pressure closer to the right point. This of course reaffirms the belief that the richer mixture creates more power. In reality the flame front speed was adjusted to get the right peak pressure point. The same result (with more power, less emissions and less fuel consumption) could be achieved by leaving the mixture at the leaner optimum and retarding the ignition more instead.
anyone have thoughts on this? Also I'm still trying to figure out how octane fits into all this idea... and obviously he's not talking about a rotary but similar principles should apply right? I am going to be tuning a race gas setup myself (still working on driveability before I boost it) so I'd like some input.

cewrx7r1 12-20-07 11:19 AM

This has been posted before and applies to piston engines which run cooler exhaust temperatures.

TEZTnTUNE 12-20-07 12:12 PM

argh the author of the article is correct. cewrx7r1 is also correct. in theory and under certain condition(think "optimum") he would be absolutely correct. but those of us know the real world isnt optimal whats so ever. we deal with bad gas, super hot days, high under hood temps, high exhuast temps, u name it.
given a good knock control strategy i would agree with him.

TEZTnTUNE 12-20-07 12:17 PM

also the size of the saftey margin u want to have is something to be considered as well. we rotary guys arent given the margin the piston boys have. hell some oem are experimenting with acceptable knock conditions in order to meet the emissiions demands set on them in the near future

arghx 12-20-07 02:52 PM

what about for a race gas tune? I will be running 110.

ChrisRX8PR 12-21-07 11:57 AM

Interested in reading more about this, anybody else?

gxl90rx7 12-21-07 02:38 PM

interesting

crispeed 12-22-07 05:19 AM


Originally Posted by arghx (Post 7647913)
what about for a race gas tune? I will be running 110.

That's one advantage of higher octane. It allows the envelope to be pushed. It's a smaller margin when applied to a rotary engine and one which many tuners don't believe the positves out weigh the negatives but yes higher octane will provide the benefits to use more ignition timing, leaner afr's and more improt higher boost levels. It's up to the tuner to know those limits though because every combination is different.


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