Question about street drivability and Single Turbos
 

hello , I may end up buying a Single turbo setup locally

Which comes with a Master power T70 The owner Believes it is either a .84 , or a .96 a/r


Now I was asking regarding turbo spool , He says its not the best car for the street . because the turbo is to big .

he says he sees full boost of 8psi by 3400 .



Now the setup is still on the car and it is still running , But the car is quite a drive away .

From what i've read about the turbo It is relativly on the smaller side , And people seem to make around 400 WHP at 15 psi .

Because what I want is to do track days , and autocross . A wide powerband is important , BUT because i'm me... and I like driving my car I drive it on the street all the time . and I'm wondering if its going to be somuch worse then my Twin turbo setup .

Power goals .. Are low .. honestly My power goal is 330 / 350 I'm not looking for 400 I want a turbo that will stay cool at the track and give reliability rather then all out power .

But I want some thing that will give me a fun car to drive on the streets as well . I don't know what tune the car is running , I dont know what restrictions it has , and such . Basically I'm wondering if I should even bother since i'm happy with my current power working sequential twins

GRanted i could always swap the turbo out later on . But i'm not a fan of a side grade when I could use the money on other things.

so maybe someone can chime in with similarly sized turbo , if they have ever compared it with the TT Setup and see what you guys may think .

I did search for a few days , But all I can find on the T70 seems to be that it can make 400 HP LOL . Thanks for any replies

I personally would do the upgrade. The cars lag will not be that bad, but that is is relative. If you are use to TT then you will obviously feel a difference. But you adapt the way you drive to the vehicle so you would get use to it. Of course this is all JMO.

If you want reliability why would you even consider a Master Power turbo or a kit that was put together with parts from someone who thought that was a viable turbo option?

Garrett makes turbos
Borg Warner makes turbos
IHI makes turbos
Holset makes turbos
Toyota makes turbos
Mitsubishi makes turbos

Now some shops make custom application turbos out of the above manufacturers parts; the only liability being their assembly, balancing, machining etc. But at least the parts they started with are good.

Turbonetics makes cheap copies
Precision makes cheap copies
Master Power makes cheap copies
Etc, etc makes cheap copies

I cant deny my cheapness is getting the better of me . but its hard to find a setup even if its not ideal , at the price I am going to get it . twins arent exactly the most reliable turbos either , I'm on my third set . AND ITS NOT FUN REPLACING THEM

"My power goal is 330 / 350 I'm not looking for 400"

the Master Power T70 is a 640 rwhp turbo on a rotary assuming it is tuned etc etc...

the turbo is wildly mis-matched for your power goals and the brand is... sketchy.

i strongly suggest you do some homework re going single... you will need significant additional upgrades (fuel injectors, ECU etc etc) so the turbo is only a part of the program.

there will be many decisions you will have to make and it will be important for you to make the correct decision or your motor will suffer.

fortunately it has all been done before and you can get any question answered on this board.

you have made a good initial step in that you have decided on a power level.

you now have to research the parts necessary for you to end up happy at the end of the trail.

the turbo you are considering is literally 180 degrees from your needs.

a Garrett GT3582r, a TD61 (Turblown), or a Borg Warner S300 62 would probably be a fit for you but there are a lot of additional pieces necessary.

the board can be of help.

Howard

I am a bit confused because I thought this turbo would run out of breadth at around 7200 rpms , and seemed like most people only made around 380 @ 15 PSI .(not that many people have used them )

I'm guessing the turbo could be run at 25 PSI and make 600 HP , But the same can be said about the twin turbos , Run them at 20 PSI and you will be in the 400 WHP range . But they are way out of their Efficiency , and reliability range.

already have all of the above . Also I do not plan to run it at very high boost But I guess regardless if the turbo is efficient at those boost levels I should get something smaller .

If you like to autocross your car, this turbo is not a good match.
My 2 cents.

you indicated you have gone thru a few OE turbo systems... if you run them over 14 psi they get into choke and superheat the air... you get less oxygen to burn as it is over 400 F as well as wipe out the turbos...



here's my turbo comparison sticky thread. you will see the T70 bolded near the bottom. given your power objective you are looking for something w a 6.3 inch compressor.



exducer inducer trim GT say what?

as i initially approached understanding turbos things became more, not less, confusing... some referenced turbos by inducer size, some by exducer. of course they reverse when you are talking turbine wheel V compressor.

i felt there needed to be a better way of comparing turbos.

as you may know all wheels have a minor diameter size and a major diameter. they are often in inches or millimeters. i wanted something simple to help me with sizing them.

i settled on the following:

take the minor diameter and solve for the area.
take the major diameter and solve for the area.
add together, divide by two.

you now have the average area of the wheel.

do it for the compressor (coldside/intake) , do it for the turbine (hotside/exhaust).

you now have two understandable numbers that help a great deal when you seek to compare turbos. needless to say there is a major correlation between area and airflow.

the cold side area determines the airflow potential, the hotside must deliver the power to actualise the potential.

hot area V cold area is especially valuable w the rotary. the rotary places a premium on large hot V cold wheel relationships. you want something approaching 1 to 1 areawise.

here's my list in square inches:...............cold.......................h ot....................relationship

GT2860RS (Disco Potato).....................3.549................. ..3.105.................... 87%
FC T2 (OEM).........................................3.57 9....................4.288................... 119
BW EFR "6255".....................................3.7 9... ...................6.758....................178
TDO5H 18G..........................................4.375 ......................3.363....................77
BW EFR "6758"....................................4.49 8... .................5.229....................86
BW EFR "7064"....................................4.63 2... .................5.229.....................88
GT3071R........................................... ....4.776....................4.019................ ... 84
GT3071R........................................... ....4.776....................3.683................ .... 77
GT2876............................................ .....5.224.....................3.108.............. ..... 59
RX6 TCW 17..........................................5.29.. .....................4.315....................82
TO4E 57 Trim........................................5.369. ....................5.408 (Stg 5)......... 100
GT3776............................................ .....5.374.....................5.441.............. ...... 101
BW S200SX...........................................5 .40......................5.24..................... ....97
TO4E 60 Trim.........................................5.476 ....................5.408...................... 98
GT3076R........................................... .....5.511...................4.019................ ....... 73
BW S300SXE 7670..................................5.52........ ............5.27........................95
BW EFR "7670"......................................5. 524. ..................5.229.......................95
GTX3076R.......................................... .....5.614..................4.019................. ......71.5
RX6 TCW10............................................. 5.63....................4.315..................... ..77
HKS TO4S.............................................. .5.64.....................5.89.................... ....104
Turbonetics 60-1....................................5.647........ ...........5.89....................... 104
Turbonetics T61......................................5.79..... ............... 5.89......................101
TO4B 62-1..............................................5.8 7..................... 5.89...................... 100
FD (OEM)............................................. ....5.972.................5.25.................... ..... 88
RX6 TCW 76.............................................6.0 3....................4.315......................72
Precision 6062.........................................6.27. ...................5.408......................86
RX6 TCW77............................................. .6.356..................4.315..................... .68
Borg Warner S300 60 PN177282 & 80.....6.383..................6.328............... ........99
GT3582R........................................... ........6.386..................5.171.............. ........81
HTA 3582R (Forced Performance)............ 6.386.................5.171....................... 81
GT3574 (A-Spec, Turblown TD61)..............6.386..................5.89.(P) .................92
GT3082R........................................... .........6.386.................smaller than GT35R..?
Precision 6262...........................................6.4 48..................5.408.....................84
Precision 6265........................................... 6.448.................5.885 (P)...............91
GTX3582R.......................................... .........6.519..................5.171............. .......79
BW S362 FMW (billet)................................6.53...... ...............6.35......................97
BW S300 SXE 62........................................6.54.... .................7.15..................109
BW EFR "8374"........................................ ..6. 626..................6.23....................94
BW, R85, TEC300...................................... 6.667...................6.93...................... 104
BW Bullseye S362.......................................6.69... .................6.31.....................94
HTA 3586 (Forced Performance).................6.839................ ...5.171....................76
Borg W S300s 61/87(2010 catalog)...........6.946..................6.928... ..................100
Precision 6765............................................6. 997.................. 5.885 (P).............. 84
Precision 6768............................................6. 997..................6.652 (GTQ)........... 95
TO4Z, A Spec GT500 PT67...........................7.002.............. ....5.885 (P)...............87
BW S300 SXE 63..........................................7.06.. ..................7.15.....................101
Borg Warner S300 63 PN177283................ 7.06....................6.31....................89
GT3788R........................................... ........... 7.155................. 5.694...................80
GT4088R........................................... ........... 7.167................. 6.423...................90
Borg Warner S364 FMW...............................7.17............ ........6.31....................88
BW S300 SXE 64...........................................7.17. ...................7.15...................99
GT4088............................................ ............ 7.26.................... 6.633..................91
T78............................................... ............... 7.584................... 5.903................. 78
T88 33D............................................... ........ 7.58..................... 7.577................. 100
T66............................................... ............... 7.657.................. 5.894.................77
Borg Warner S300X 9179............................ 7.691................... 5.885 (P)........... 77
BW S300 SXE 66..........................................7.74.. .....................7.15...................92
Borg W S300sx 66/91(2010 catalog)............7.743....................7.151 .................92
Borg Warner S366....................................... 7.88..................... 6.23................... 79
BW EFR "9180"........................................ ...7 .974....................7.189.................90
BW S300 SXE 69...........................................7.99. ......................7.15..................89
HTA 3794 (Forced Performance)...................8.148.............. ......5.89...................72
GT4094R........................................... ........... 8.175................... 6.423..................79
GT4294, T51R.............................................. 8.384................... 7.527..................90
Borg W K29 Billet (2010 catalog)..................8.432................... .7.175..................85
T88 34D............................................... ........ 8.449................... 7.577.................. 90
MasterPower "GT42"................................... 8.658................... 6.871................. 79
T70............................................... ................ 8.725.................. 6.648.................. 76
Borg Warner S368.........................................9.1.. ......................7.49....................77
Borg W S400sx (2010 catalog)......................9.174............... .....7.62....................83
Borg Warner S372-80.................................. 9.456................... 7.173................... 76
Borg Warner S372-83.4............................... 9.456................... 7.593................... 80
Borg Warner S372-84.................................. 9.456................... 10.298................. 109
Borg Warner S475....................................... 9.49...................... 10.292.................108
T72............................................... ................. 9.549.................. 6.648 (Q)............. 69
GT4202............................................ ............. 9.726................... 7.527.................... 77
T51R Spl............................................... ......... 9.92..................... 7.194.................... 73
Masterpower GT45................................... 10.082..................... 8.4739.................... 84%

Thank you very much that is extremely helpful . looks like I'll be looking at replacing the turbo with a GT35 instead .

Tem
Don't over look this bad boy :)

S300 60 PN177282 & 80
Borg Warner has favorable hot sides for rotaries and the price is very reasonable.

yeah , I was looking at that the hot side on the GT35 was .62 which seemed a bit small vs the cold side .

How would a smaller turbo like the S300 , or a GT35R hold up with intake air temp wise on a track 20 minute sessions my intake air temps with the twins were pretty high up . ifi dont use water or meth to cool things down


Now the GT35R , or that S300 Would they prettymuch be a blow dryer like the stock twins ?

I would like to run them at around 13/14 PSI max

Garrett GT35R, 3574 (basically a journal bearing 35r) BW 360, are all much better options for a reliable 350-400 hp goal and will make more if you crank the boost. People get away with the cheap turbos sometimes, but to me its not worth risking damaging the motor if the compressor wheel flies off. And no they would not be like a hair drier lol. Each are a lot more efficient at higher than stock power levels.

"Now the GT35R , or that S300 Would they pretty much be a blow dryer like the stock twins ? "

the primary problem w the stock twins is not the turbos but the manifolding. very restrictive keeping exhaust heat in the engine, manifold and the hotside of the turbos.

while the GT35 and S300 series are on the smaller side of the list of turbos they are fully capable of making 450+ hp on your motor if properly tuned and supported.

that means they will be not breaking a serious sweat at your power objective. this is important as when you push a turbo to max flow (choke) you get superheated intake air temps.

while you can see that the GT35 and S300 have similar compressors (which determine power output) pls note the diff in turbine area...

5.17 V 6.3 sq inches... i like the larger BW hotside. road racing puts a tremendous strain on our small displacement motors as heat cumulates over time.

heat does not have to be a problem if you make the right decisions re your build.

HC

thanks alot , seems like I will probably be going with one of those turbos if everything works out as planned , Thanks alot for all the adivce

How would a smaller turbo like the S300 , or a GT35R hold up with intake air temp wise on a track 20 minute sessions my intake air temps with the twins were pretty high up . ifi dont use water or meth to cool things down


Realistically, I don't think you will be able to drive ANY turbo car flat out for 20 min sessions without melt down.

Still, since a turbo 2 rotor has twice the torque as say a 3 rotor NA you can drive conservatively and choose strategic times to use your full turbo potential in the 20 min session.

This is why NAs are more fun though, you can really drive it balls to the wall.

On the other hand, you will learn more racecraft working strategically with the benefits and drawbacks of the turbo set-up. And you will learn to rebuild rotaries.

We've done plenty of 20 min plus track sessions at the 500whp level for years. Sure you are on and off the throttle constantly but it can be done with the right setup. Oil and water cooling is crucial. Going wide open throttle for 20 min, that's another story:bigthumb:

I've run a ball bearing TO4E, 60 trim with a 1.0 A/R and am quite happy with it on the streets. Very responsive on and off boost. 3.5" DP>3.5" MP>3" catback. If I'm cruising in 5th gear and go WOT at 2000 rpms, I see 10psi at 2300-2400 rpms. This is with a 4.3 rear. It's sweet spot is about 8psi-15psi. Yeah it's an old turbo design but suits me well. Never autocrossed it with the single but did so on the twins. While the response and torque of the primary turbo at low rpms is hard to match...I never liked the flatness on the small straightaways waiting for the 2ndary to come on. Always seemed like just as the 2ndary was exploding online I was either lifting and/or braking for a turn. Of course, course setup plays heavily on that. My car is right around 375 to the wheels at 14 psi. With your goals a 57 trim TO4E would work well also. Though of course, there are other factors associated such as motor condition, tuning, etc. my 2 cents.

Something I haven't seen mentioned that I have noticed after doing a single turbo upgrade, is that the off boost performance is much better. Having a proper tubular exhaust manifold (header) and much lower restriction hotside definitely helps.

Unless you get crazy with a "big" turbo, the on boost performance outweighs any modest lag.

i vote *Borg Warner S300 60 PN177282*


i'd say EFR8374 .92 and run < 10psi, but it's expensive.

s300 is about the same size, journal bearing, rebuildable, wayyyy cheaper, and solid. response won't be *AS* good, but still good. all these borg warner S series turbos have nicely sized turbine wheels for our rotaries.

S300 is a good option for a solid 400 wheel hp on pump gas. It can do more if pushed. Garret Ball bearing turbos are great but they come with a price. If you are trying to keep costs down the BW might be a better option for you. It is also cheaper to rebuild if you ever need to. I'm building a S300 360 kit right now for a customer. Here is one installed by another of my customers.

:icon_tup: yours is super responsive Don.

Oh sure you can :) One of my friends and dealers in AUS;

Exactly Elliot. We used to hot lap for 20-30 minutes at a time at the 500 whp level for years. Its all in the setup.

Oh sure you can One of my friends and dealers in AUS;

Exactly Elliot. We used to hot lap for 20-30 minutes at a time at the 500 whp level for years. Its all in the setup.


Ha! Fastest way to lose an endurance race is to try to run each lap like qualifying.

Mazda won '91 Lemans by coasting the back half of the straights every lap.

But it is true as you say- an endurance set up will be less high strung (and slower) than a time attack set up.