Interesting feedback on the Borg Warner EFR
Here is a bit of info some of you may be interested in. I would love to try one of these if only $ permitted.
From email... "...We just delivered our 40th unit today; feedback has been positive for function and fitment, and quite negative for delivery, which is understandable, given that the 40 we've received and delivered is less than 10% of what we have on order. The product sells itself; if BWTS can get the lead time issues behind them, all will be well, and we expect smooth sailing by end of summer." "....Since there are very few 'identical' turbine trim crossovers in the EFR family, it's hard to do a fair comparison, but yes, the Gamma Ti wheels respond significantly quicker than any similar wheel trim in Inconel, including the popular Garrett GT Series. They respond as close to instantly as you could ever imagine. We did a conversion from a Precision 62/65 unit to the EFR8374, and the engine picked up 55lb/ft of torque, at 400rpm lower than with the PTE unit. It also made 40+HP peak more than the PTE; we made 705RWHP on a Supra 2JZ engine, at 31psi. It would only manage to peak at around 26psi with the PTE unit, and the increase over the PTE was noted at 26psi; the PTE made 607, and the EFR made 650." (BTW the EFR8374 has a 62mm compressor inducer also) |
The gamma wheels seem to be proving their worth but I've met few people who like fitting the turbo's themselves, having everything lumped on there creates a need for a considerably larger envelope to fit it in. That's not a knock on the turbo itself but when I had one in my hands the first thing I thought was this things needs a good amount of space. That was only confirmed by a good friend at another shop who said he likes the idea but thinks it creates a whole new set of issues after building a few setups with them. As far as delivery goes all turbo manufacturers have delays they don't have their own foundries (precision) and/or the performance divisions are about 1-2% of their total production (Garrett/BW) so until they get the product fully integrated into the line new product will be on backorder constantly for roughly the first year after release.
~S~ |
Do we have any empirical evidence whether the internal waste gates will flow enough to prevent creep or not?
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good question
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Originally Posted by RXtacy
(Post 10665502)
Do we have any empirical evidence whether the internal waste gates will flow enough to prevent creep or not?
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Honest to god, I am a bit skeptic of the EFR marketing.
If you want to be pessimistic about the part, from the outside it looks like I couldn't even buy one. Is borg warner holding off selling them to sources that are not approved installer customers or even people that have a conflict of interest to report they are the best thing going? If the only people that have them are installers who sell them and they are only installing them on client cars well Borg Warner is actually keeping the part away from purebred enthusiast without a vested interest in the product becoming the must have part? This is a damn good way to let internet hype keep snowballing until enough bottom feeders and regurgitaors who have no hope of ever buying on just propagate the exaggerations of how good they are. How come I can't find any information on how a EFR8374 performs on any of the following engines 1jz,2jz,rb26det,rb30det,12a,13b I could go on. I emphasise the NEED FOR PROOF. 1+ years of biased results and marketing is going to do something very good for the products image. Please rebut with datalogs, pictures of installs and 1/4 mile and street movies :lol: I know there is a movie on youtube of a twin turbo nissan but that is pretty far away from showing movies of the dyno screen test results like for eg turblown do on this site. |
Originally Posted by JZG
(Post 10665293)
"....Since there are very few 'identical' turbine trim crossovers in the EFR family, it's hard to do a fair comparison, but yes, the Gamma Ti wheels respond significantly quicker than any similar wheel trim in Inconel, including the popular Garrett GT Series. They respond as close to instantly as you could ever imagine.
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Originally Posted by Jobro
(Post 10666572)
How come I can't find any information on how a EFR8374 performs on any of the following engines 1jz,2jz,rb26det,rb30det,12a,13b I could go on. I emphasise the NEED FOR PROOF.
the reason you cant find result is because these turbos haven't even gotten into customer hands yet. the twin scroll turbos sized for the applications you mentioned are delayed. i saw a recent post saying if you order one today, you wont get it for possibly another 8-12 weeks. the internet age makes people forget that sometimes seeing results take time. first, the shops need to actually get the turbos. then they need to build new manifold for turbo, since the integrated wastegate and large size probably wont work with most existing manifold designs. then they need to finish whatever project the turbo is going on, and do their testing. even then, not all the shops that do this actually end up posting any of their results on forums. it might be a few more months before we see any real world optimized testing of the larger EFR turbos. if you want the most recent info on EFR stuff, i would call up or email Geoff @ Full-Race.com . They are well known for their badass manifolds, and hes also very excited about the EFR line and has posted quite a bit of good info on them so far on supraforums. |
Asking a company that's very heavily invested in selling and marketing the turbos for relatively unbiased data is a waste of time. Full Race is part of the hype. I would wait for results from someone who can be more objective (of course no testing is 100% free of bias).
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Originally Posted by RXtacy
(Post 10665502)
Do we have any empirical evidence whether the internal waste gates will flow enough to prevent creep or not?
the idea that internal wastegates are inadequate generally comes from OEM turbos that people turn up the boost above the level it was designed for. the internal gate flows enough for what it was designed for. if BW designed these turbos with performance enthusiasts in mind, they would be making a huge mistake by implementing an inadequate wastegate. we will have to wait and see once theyve been properly tested on some big hp cars. |
Originally Posted by arghx
(Post 10668398)
Asking a company that's very heavily invested in selling and marketing the turbos for relatively unbiased data is a waste of time. Full Race is part of the hype. I would wait for results from someone who can be more objective (of course no testing is 100% free of bias).
however, since you mentioned bias, it works both ways. companies that dont sell them have a vested interest in downplaying is disparaging them, to promote whatever they sell. ive seen people posting just as much negative hype as positive, without any shred of testing evidence. the only way to truly find unbiased opinion would be to find a shop that sells NO product lines themselves, but tests them all in max effort applications and reports their procedures and results? i doubt this exists. i have no reason at all to defend or disparage the turbos for any reason... im just interested in seeing REAL results, and i just get annoyed seeing people complaining about stuff or reinforcing negative assumptions for something that real world results havent even been posted yet. |
however, since you mentioned bias, it works both ways. companies that dont sell them have a vested interest in downplaying is disparaging them, to promote whatever they sell. ive seen people posting just as much negative hype as positive, without any shred of testing evidence. |
Well maybe they should stop the trash talk and get some accredited dyno data logs out there and some movies.
If would be a safe bet to put a EFR8374 1.05 against a T04Z 1.0 and at least show close but slightly better power/response. I already know to a real engineer the difference will be not worth the price difference. |
I ordered my 9180 in January and was told it would be releases April 19th..... With that said I still have not received my turbo yet. No rush yet since I haven't completed my engine and still have other stuff I need to buy but once I am to the point where I can't get any further without my turbo then I will become to grow impatient
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Originally Posted by Jobro
(Post 10666572)
Honest to god, I am a bit skeptic of the EFR marketing.
If you want to be pessimistic about the part, from the outside it looks like I couldn't even buy one. Is borg warner holding off selling them to sources that are not approved installer customers or even people that have a conflict of interest to report they are the best thing going? If the only people that have them are installers who sell them and they are only installing them on client cars well Borg Warner is actually keeping the part away from purebred enthusiast without a vested interest in the product becoming the must have part? This is a damn good way to let internet hype keep snowballing until enough bottom feeders and regurgitaors who have no hope of ever buying on just propagate the exaggerations of how good they are. How come I can't find any information on how a EFR8374 performs on any of the following engines 1jz,2jz,rb26det,rb30det,12a,13b I could go on. I emphasise the NEED FOR PROOF. 1+ years of biased results and marketing is going to do something very good for the products image. Please rebut with datalogs, pictures of installs and 1/4 mile and street movies :lol: I know there is a movie on youtube of a twin turbo nissan but that is pretty far away from showing movies of the dyno screen test results like for eg turblown do on this site. I have already had two EFR turbos, all I did was order them early. BW isnt keeping them away from non-authorized dealers, they just havent produced many so far.
Originally Posted by T-R-C
(Post 10667097)
Has anyone seen the posted the weights of two comparable sized turbine wheels such as above?
Originally Posted by arghx
(Post 10668398)
Asking a company that's very heavily invested in selling and marketing the turbos for relatively unbiased data is a waste of time. Full Race is part of the hype. I would wait for results from someone who can be more objective (of course no testing is 100% free of bias).
Its good to look at things objectively, but remember the skepticism you had towards billet wheels, and how your understanding has changed that.
Originally Posted by Jobro
(Post 10671605)
Well maybe they should stop the trash talk and get some accredited dyno data logs out there and some movies.
If would be a safe bet to put a EFR8374 1.05 against a T04Z 1.0 and at least show close but slightly better power/response. I already know to a real engineer the difference will be not worth the price difference. Its really up to the market and whether consumers can or can not afford the price difference. If you have a backyard built turbo kit with all used parts, are you going to be able to justify $1500+ on the newest turbo? Not likely. What about someone who tracks his car every weekend and has $15000+ in the motor alone? Im sure he would have no problem spending the money. Do you have a background in engineering? It doesnt sound like it, so how would you be able to say what an engineer would think? I DO have a background in engineering, and I can say the EFR line is quite good. However, it doesnt make sense to look at the price from an engineering standpoint. Thats like deciding what color to paint your house, strictly from a manufacturers position. Features like dual ceramic ball bearings (durable), stainless turbine housings (lightweight, look nice), built in compressor bypass (saves money/time), internally gated twin scroll housings (convenient and space saving), and billet compressor wheels (obvious reasons) are all GREAT from this consumer's point of view. |
Someday the 9180 will be mine. Until there's a little more feedback and you can actually purchase one of these I'll have to be happy with my GT35R. I am thankful that these companies are now finally taking the initiative to offer newer technology on aftermarket turbos.
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Originally Posted by ScorpionT
(Post 10679142)
I have already had two EFR turbos, all I did was order them early. BW isnt keeping them away from non-authorized dealers, they just havent produced many so far.
I will accept comma delimited xls showing the following parameters time scale Throttle Position (%) MAP (and whatever units) RPM IGN timing split timing injection duty primary injection duty secondary raw pulsewidth primary (mS) raw pulsewidth secondary (ms) wb02 reading fuel type road conditions approx ambient altitude prefer something with more than 10 samples per second! I already know you won't deliver so :scratch: |
would be nice to know when the 9180 will be available. Cant wait to hear some results
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Originally Posted by Jobro
(Post 10679773)
Ow awesome, please publish some test results then!!!! :)
I will accept comma delimited xls showing the following parameters time scale Throttle Position (%) MAP (and whatever units) RPM IGN timing split timing injection duty primary injection duty secondary raw pulsewidth primary (mS) raw pulsewidth secondary (ms) wb02 reading fuel type road conditions approx ambient altitude prefer something with more than 10 samples per second! I already know you won't deliver so :scratch:
Originally Posted by Bitchn7
(Post 10680749)
would be nice to know when the 9180 will be available. Cant wait to hear some results
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I thought this was an interesting read.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2135597 |
Originally Posted by the_glass_man
(Post 10696624)
I thought this was an interesting read.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2135597 The test results show the warner is slower building boost and makes a handful more horsepower. The measurements say the warner is nearly identical except has a few mere mm more turbine wheel. Well..... What else would you think would happen. 20BHP is not worth 200rpm in spool. The weight saying has moot effect at least on high throttle low RPM minimal energy spool. It possibly is better when there is high energy available and you have a rapid demand for quick transient rise, but there is no data to prove this. Also the authors deducations and justification for the product based on 'road feel' well where is the data dip shit. That reeks of I've gotta say something nice about the product. So in summary. Market Price point - FAIL Size and packaging - FAIL Compressor wheel match to high flow / low boost setups - FAIL Product Availabilty - FAIL The only thing this product has had a success on is bullshit positive internet hype... |
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How well did you look at the graphs?? This looks like a win to me in terms of spool with out sacrificing power.
Choose the external gate option and size is reduced somewhat. Last time I checked the EFR 7670 was cheaper than a GTX3582. It's all just speculation until there are a few rotors running them, but if nothing else it looks promising. |
Originally Posted by JZG
(Post 10697774)
How well did you look at the graphs?? This looks like a win to me in terms of spool with out sacrificing power.
Choose the external gate option and size is reduced somewhat. Last time I checked the EFR 7670 was cheaper than a GTX3582. It's all just speculation until there are a few rotors running them, but if nothing else it looks promising. |
I got an idea! How about we just wait till these things are actually tested on a 13B and stop all this pointless bickering about what turbo looks better then what on paper or on test that such and such magazine did. As soon as I get my 9180 twinscrill in I will put my engine together and put up some results from one of these things on a 13B w/ semi p ports.
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Different results with different motors
Originally Posted by ElCapoRx7
(Post 10697931)
I got an idea! How about we just wait till these things are actually tested on a 13B and stop all this pointless bickering about what turbo looks better then what on paper or on test that such and such magazine did. As soon as I get my 9180 twinscrill in I will put my engine together and put up some results from one of these things on a 13B w/ semi p ports.
As far as the results on the Subaru forum, the GTX30 is making more power much earlier than the EFR but has a lower peak. I'm no expert, but based on what limited knowledge I do have, the area under the curve is the "work" the turbo is doing. At least looking at the graphs, the EFR is trading a small "work" band at the 6000+ rpm range but loses much more in the earlier power range. If these guys are tuning for peak power, I can see where the EFR is more desirable, but the car have a worse power band. Of course actually driving data has been shown to vary quite a bit from dyno graphs anyway so it really isn't a good point of comparison. |
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