zjbarra

iTrader: (2)

Do people run speed sensors on their turbos? If so, what do you do with the information? I think it is interesting to know your efficiency but do people actually use the data to do tuning that couldn't just be done with boost info?

I will be running an EFR 8374 on a medium street port and shooting for 400 rwhp which shouldn't make the turbo break a sweat. Is a speed sensor pointless for me?

Dragoon

You may not need it, but more data is never useless!

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

So i've been running EMAP on my Semi-PP Engine. And have the speed sensor wired, but need to crimp on my pins and connector to get it working. (sorry Lagging) Borg Warner is one of my Partners for my program and we've been working out Sizing of the A/R And turbo in general to Optimize turbo size for my application in Drift Racing. Compressor speed is used to see where your engine is operating in terms of Efficiency with the turbo. You can use Both the Compressor speed along with EMAP to see if you're getting close to maxing out the turbo, and breathing room of the system. Not completed yet pending the next dyno session..but prematurely.. What we found was that Most people are using too large a turbo for their required goals. For Instance...My engine Spins to 10K on the Dyno and at 18PSI on an EFR8374 we were getting close enough for the motorsports Tech at Borg Warner to advise me to hook up Shaft speed sensor. He wanted to make sure we weren't getting too close to over-spinning the turbo. Pending this next dyno session, we've talked about using the smaller 7670 to sacrifice top end for a more useable powerband down low.

valley

iTrader: (1)

A speed sensor will tell you more easily where you land on the turbo efficiency chart. It tells you nothing you should not ALREADY know when you chose your turbo and tells you nothing you cannot find out from back calculation. If you are simply following another persons build path to go after the same results, which isn't unreasonable, then what will you do with the extra data? Can it be useful when you're changing your setup and you, for whatever reason, chose a very poorly matched turbo and as such are in a bad area of the efficiency map? Sure. Is it useful for everyday driving? No. If you need it for a street car I highly recommend reevaluating your choice in setup. If you would like to know more I highly recommend a book by Corky Bell: Maximum Boost.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

this brings up good points. OP, are you going off the beaten path and trying to do something different or are you buying a proven turbo kit, installing it and paying someone to tune the car?

As to whether they are useful or not, well that depends what you are trying to do with the car. The new Nissan/Infiniti 3.0 twin turbo V6 has turbo speed sensors from the factory, which they integrate into their control systems on the stock ECU.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

zjbarra

I will be running an EFR 8374 on a medium street port and shooting for 400 rwhp which shouldn't make the turbo break a sweat. Is a speed sensor pointless for me?

If this is on a 2 rotor I would say, yes turbo speed gauge would be useless unless you will be wanting to know when you develop a boost leak (turbo rpm will read higher than usual at same boost).

The EFR 8374 fits the 2 rotor well and has been proven to work reliably on the street and track.

The only issue I have heard anyone has had is running at high boost (over 20psi, which you won't need for your 400rwhp goal). Specifically, some people have had the EFR 8374 momentarily surge at high boost and low rpm (around 3,000rpm).

Well, that and boost creep on the IWG versions, but I wouldn't say that is a fault of the turbo. One can either use the EWG version or put some restriction in the exhaust on the IWG version if they do get boost creep.

RGHTBrainDesign

I once asked a Honda Engine Design specialist if we could raise the rod to stroke ratio on my B-series to make a motor that revved to 11k RPM. His response was simple, "Do you want to rev, or do you want to make power?" What he meant by that was by getting an engine to rev out like that, I would be limiting my powerband width instead of something lower revving with a stronger torque curve (and focusing on building the widest powerband possible).

Aaron, I know it's purely driver preference, but have you considered a different approach when trying to build a setup for drifting? I know you've tried the 9174, 8374, and are contemplating the 7670 now, which seems completely backwards for tire shredding capabilities. The FD is an excellent chassis, and you've done extensive work on your build, but I think you're taking a weird approach to it all.

Here's my suggestion for how to better set up your car for Drifting:

1) Lower your Final Drive Ratio (~3.2-3.4:1)

You're not driving a gutless Honda, so let those gears run you out faster and hopefully save a few transmissions with less shifting.


2) Lower your Rev Limiter/Redline and Focus on Torque Output and Power Under The Curve

If you stuck with the 8374 for instance and chose a 1.05 A/R (or you convinced BW to design us 1.15 EWG and IWG turbine housings), Abel could dial you in for most boost in the midrange and taper it off as RPMs climb. Drive a modern, turbocharged Ford and you'll see how they implement their powerbands, now amplify that and let it breath up top. That's what you'll see. Let boost peak around 6k RPM (at over 30psi, you'll have plenty of tire shredding capabilities), and taper the top end down to low 20s so the motor stays intact longer this time around.


3) Machine your IM/TB and anything else vacuum, cold-source related to receive o-rings to actually hold the boost. Anything over 15psi, the factory **** leaks, so does aftermarket.


4) Rethink the Exhaust Manifold Design for what you're actually trying to accomplish. The Inner Diameter and Runner Length are not what I'd think works on anything but excellent engine bay fitment.

Ask Gleaseman if he can offer you an larger runner diameter pipe for your new shorty design that you'll ask for (because now you're focusing on response). My suggestion for this would be 2" Schedule 10 Pipe with 2.157" Inner Diameter and 0.109" Wall Thickness (to hold the weight of your turbo, keep noise down, and keep heat in) out of 321 Stainless Steel.



For the OP:

The most valuable aspect of the Speed Sensor is reading it's lower RPM speeds and making sure that you're not surging the turbo. Completely unnecessary for your build. Invest that money in tuning, a modern ECU, Injector Dynamics Injectors, a Boost Resource turbine housing cover, engine bay dual-layer shielding (build heat shields with a small air gap), clutch, drivetrain, suspension, brakes, and seat time. The last thing I would spend money on is a device that tells me a speed of something I already calculated.

The 8374 is an excellent choice, and if you go IWG, port the wastegate so you don't deal with these issues that everyone is referencing. Keep it simple, stupid.

zjbarra

iTrader: (2)

I just got the turbo and saw where the sensor would attach and figured I'd ask. I am not a tuning expert so I wasn't sure if there is something more than I was imagining it offered or a safety benefit to it. Thanks!

RGHTBrainDesign

No problem! Good luck with the build!

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

He is going after the torque, it's easier to modulate for what he is doing with no lag and monster torque. Honestly instead of chasing the torque by switching to his 3rd and yet even smaller turbo, he should consider LS swapping his car. Spin the tires at any RPM. With 400 lbs pounds off Idle.

But what do I know.

valley

iTrader: (1)

I know that I've continually pointed out how much heavier than rotaries even aluminum block V8s are but 400 lbs is a bit excessive. So apparently not much.

silverTRD

iTrader: (36)

Ummm....wut?

RGHTBrainDesign

Your interpretation of TORQUE is incorrect.
You're referring to the preference of Response > Output.

Actually, for drifting, you'd really want to go electric with peak torque at 1 RPM.

A V8 Swap is only 35lbs or so heavier at the motor w/ T56 Transmission, and without intercoolers and all the crazy cooling needed, I'm sure it could be a great option. This is a rotary forum, so let's leave that be, it's beat like a dead horse elsewhere.

What I write on here is opinion. Unless anyone else has something to say about Turbo Speed Sensors that's actually helpful, this thread is dead, leave it as such.

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

3 turbos in 5-6 years isn't necessarily a bad thing. The gtx ate a seal.. and was toast. The 8374 is there love of my life and The 9174 was a test to see what it felt like in comparison. I'm currently running the 8374.

Thought about building an ls swapped fd for a beater haha.


And srill just trying to get to the bottom of it... Ryan, why is it that you always feel the need to try and advise me publicly with info you've read either from my thread and or elsewhere... yet you don't drift, nor visit the track with your car or even have it running? I'm not trying yo be a jerk, I just honestly don't get it.

Not trying to come off pompous to people who don't know me, but drift cars are my job. I've had the opportunity to work with some really good teams over the past 3 years and what I've learned is real world experience and knowledge applicable to the situation. All I'm saying is... if you want to advise people on how to build their cars, then you'd better have the experience to do so.

To the OP I can DM or email you the results of our shaft speed /emap log soon here. And apologies for disrupting the thread topic, but sometimes things just need to be said.

RGHTBrainDesign

I'm honestly disappointed that with all of what I provided you, you're turning this into a personal thing. What I wrote above was nothing but constructive ideas and I expected a professional response. This is for the technical development and performance of a dying platform, so I take this very seriously. YOU have resources that I don't have access to, so by providing an opinion (because that's all I've ever offered), I'd only hope to help you think more openly about how to approach a winning recipe or build a cutting edge car. It's purely to say there are different ways of doing things.

You should know this, but at 10k RPM, you're incredibly time limited for both fuel injection and ignition strength (due to incredibly short charging time). This isn't a big deal on a reciprocating engine (twice the processing time available) or on an engine that isn't boosted to within a fraction of it's life (higher boost pressure takes a stronger spark). The ignition system will be your limiting factor with increased RPM + high power output due to boost.

Please take the time to read over and respond to what I posted in detail. Otherwise, what is this forum here for anyways? Bickering? No.

valley

iTrader: (1)

The latter is quite true. As to the former, if you don't mind I'd like to take a look at those results if possible.

I don't think he was addressing you at all... Regardless, your info, as it appeared to me, seemed to be of limited usefulness. He not only has resources we do not but needs as well. A build is not as black and white as x power y torque z rpm.

While this is not an invitation to bicker or even debate in this thread as it's already woefully swerving off topic I point these things out as counterpoints:
Your Aluminum block swap weight figure is off by ~75-100lbs, part for part.
0rpm max torque electric motors are only good at wrecking drivetrains. It's why companies don't use them or limit a motors low rpm capabilities so they don't behave like one
My weight post was a joke pointing at the lack of relevance of ZoomZoom's post
Don't be offended if people don't take your unsolicited advice or address you directly. It's their time and money.