Going for 550rwhp pump...major ignition breakup
 

Hello to everyone,

My power goal has been to break 500+hp for a few years now. I've come very close, and I believe I have one limitation at this point, ignition. If you experienced guys out there can give me some insight my dilemma, i would really appreciate the input.

Current Setup:

67mm T04R Kit
REW; RA Superseals, Large SP, built by Jeremy Lowes
AEM EMS V1
660cc Coolingmist Water/Meth 50/50
Blitz FMIC
1680/850's
HKS Twin Power, stock coils with 10's, used expensive race plugs, BUR9EQP all around, BR10EIX's with ground socket tried everything.


-Car made 440rwhp earlier this year at 18psi, pulled like a beast but had slight hesistation at redline. AFR was around 11.5-8, 14-15 degrees timing/12 split.

Have since upgraded from a 60mm to a 67mm and have been retuning the map for additional CFM.

I'm currently at 16psi, with slightly more fuel in the necessary spots. Between 5k and 8k I get SERIOUS breakup when running anything under 11:1. It only stays somewhat smooth at 11.2+. Breaking 500hp at around 24psi will require a pretty rich mixture on pump gas. I'm afraid to push 12:1 with that much boost.

I was hoping the ignition would be able to handle 660cc water/meth and stay under an 11:1 at this boost level at the very least.

Am I right in assuming that the HKS unit and stock coils just can't handle the mixture with this much water? I've tried increasing the coil dwell setting from 3.3ms to 5.0ms. No help.


If this is the case; would the sakebombgarge AEM Smart Coil setup solve this ignition issue?

Obviously I could decrease my water nozzle size and run fine at the current boost level, but the goal is 24psi pump; and Im not comfortable with the safety of pure meth.

https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/...39400026_n.jpg
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Tuning is being done on load adjustable, dyno dynamics.

SBG are expensive. Contact C.Ludwig on here for the exact same but at a cheaper price. Harness will be built to your spec.

I would say you need that bit more spark energy and the AEM coils will give you that. Shouldn't have a problem even with a lot of WM50/50

I've talked to a few people who have gone through multiple ignition setups and everyone pretty much arrives at M&W and couldn't be happier. I'm still thinking of giving the AEM coils a shot just to see, but that's because I'd really rather not spend that much on ignition if possible.

given the fact you are talking about making around 630 flywheel hp from 80 cubic inches/ about 8 hp per cubic inch....

it isn't a surprise that your ignition (including 20 year old coils designed for 255 hp) may have not been u to the task of lighting such a compressed mixture.

fortunately a fairly simple and inexpensive solution is at hand.

contact C Ludwig and he will set you up w what you need. the coils have 5 wires each and he can provide you w a harness to plug in to your setup. otherwise you get to connect 20 wires to your FD.

replace your plugs w Autolite Racing AR3932X. NAPA can order them for you.... around 5 bucks each and they work magnificently w the IGN-1A coils. (see Spark Plug Tech 2013 thread in Single turbo and Third Gen Sections for details)

here's my dyno sheet at 25 psi and no more than 4.5 mS dwell... zero break up.

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2554/4nq6.jpg

BTW, you are on the edge as to fuel.

73 pounds per minute of air gets you 550 SAE.

at 10.5 AFR (this is rich but allows you some headroom tuning-wise) that works out to 6.95 pounds of fuel or 1.094 gallons per minute, or 4141 CC/Minute.

you have 4900 however that is Nominal or Gross.

your motor only sees NET.

Net is Gross minus duty cycle (85%) minus Lag (13%)

4900 X .85 = 4165

4165 X .87 = 3623 CC/Minute

you need 4141 for 550.

3623/4141 = .875

.875 X 550 = 481 rwhp SAE.

of course you may find you are able to safely make your power in the low 11s so that will extend your fuel a bit.

further, you might raise rail pressure to enhance fuel output.

i am just raising a cautionary note here for you.

good luck,

howard

Cat looks good and numbers are good to me lol but more is better

I was in the same boat as you with the ignition setup etc. I had the 6265 and I was spraying around 600cc's of water as well, I was getting ignition break up at the top of the RPMs. I have since upgraded to a 6766 and I also went with AEM coils. I'll keep you posted on the results, I'd say you're due for an ignition upgrade.

my old stock coils and HKS fired 600rwhp just fine. I say you have something else going on.

Once was tuning on the street and was having the same issue. Car was breaking up and read lean. I kept adding fuel and it wouldnt help... Guess what..... I added a new WB sensor it should way rich. Leaned it out and all was fine.


BTW I am selling my complete MSD ignition with 2 step, modules relays, etc....

Yes sk8world, but were you running 650cc of water ?

Have a brand new zeitronix wideband and new bosch sensor, grounds are matched with ecu. Car doesn't misfire if I lean it out to 11.5afr.

May be interested in the msd setup, ill give you a call and talk about it. Currently leaning towards the simplicity of the sakebombgarage aem kit.

Howard, thanks for the recommendations. I will likely install the kenne bell BAP to ramp up voltage and increase the pressure. I could redo the entire system with larger ID's, dual pumps, new lines etc...but I'd rather not go all out crazy. In tank single pump, BAP, water injection and 500-550rwhp as long as egt's look good I hope will be a reasonable goal.

I made 510hp on pump gas with stock coils and twin power, with 11.0 afr and 900cc of water. Same ignition on e85 now makes 540hp. Unless you just have weak coils, it should be up to the task.

Ryan, what plugs do you run?

b10egv

Had a similar issue with a car years ago that was using an FJO wideband, which I think you have as well. Tried tuning it to 11:1 under boost but got massive breakup. After a lot of head scratching, swapped in an NGK AFX, which matched readings with the FJO, up to about 13:1, where the readings started to drift apart. The NGK bottomed out at 9:1 on the same tune the FJO said was 11:1. Took the car to my buddy's shop and confirmed the NGK measurements with his ECM AFM1000. Tuned the car with the ECM meter and suddenly all was happy. Sent the FJO controller and sensor back to FJO for inspection and they said it was fine. They did send it back with a new sensor which gave the same results.

after a succession of widebands dating back to 04 i finally switched to an NGK AFX and now my readings line up w my dyno... for the first time.

howard

Like I said Zach, the stock coils and HKS can make big power. If you are running good plugs and the coils are fine then you have other issue's. Did it do this on Ray's tune or after the turbo change?

Yes it did this at beginning of tuning w ray, and after ray finisher I had slight upper rpm breakup

Damn good points on the widebands, the dyno was reading way richer like a full point then my zeitronix

Bring your water level back to 500cc if you can.

Next, put some proper spark plugs in it. R7420-105 or R6725-115.
Next, bring you mixtures back to 11.5-116:1

You should find your ignition break up gone and have very very strong power.

To add input I will outline my old setup, and new.

T3 35R 1.06AR
Typical supporting
MSD Race Wires
NGK R6725-10 on all 4 plugs
HKS Twin Power
New leading OEM coil
Power FC
Around 700cc 50/50 WM preturbo
Made 454whp @ 23psi

T4 P-Trim 35R 1.15AR
Typical supporting
MSD Race Wires
4 AEM coils Direct Fire (4.5ms dwell)
NGK R6725-10 on all 4 plugs
Adaptronic ECU
Around 750cc 50/50 WM preturbo
Made 504whp @ 24psi on a 90 degree day

I have had zero breakup with either setup. One of the best moves for me with using the HKS Twin Power was the NEW leading coil, and the NGK Race plugs. I picked up the new coil from Ray for around $150. These coils are old and have seen a lot of heat.

However, at this point, I would move to the AEM coils. Direct Fire will also help your cause, but its not a necessity. As mentioned, the Twin Power and stock coils can make big power. It's been done many times.

I am also running an Innovative LC1 wideband. It was identical to my tuner's during my dyno session.

Is your battery relocated?
Proper grounding directly to the block?
Original ignition harness?
What does your voltage look like at idle and cruise?

Rx72c--I recall reading some of your posts where you were running and advocating the use of lots, e.g., 1100+ cc's of water. Have you reduced or revised your use of water? Or recommendations for quantity of water vs. Tune? Thanks in advance for the clarification.

I have definitely revised the amount of water used. Found more power available with less water while still have no detectable detonation.

Great posts guys thanks a lot. I will try leaning out mix to 11.5 in powerband and see what we get

I do have battery relocated tl driver bin. Battery negative is grounded to chassis bolt inside car.

Wiring harness for motor is in good condition. I will recheck coil grounds.

I would definitely add an additional ground directly from the battery negative to the transmission or engine block. Then the usual from engine to body.

Likely not your issue but voltage is only as good as the grounds you are providing. Grounding loops can also cause issues with your instrumentation and voltage sensitive devices.

As a rule of thumb, you never want to ground sensitive devices like a wideband through the same source as a charging or high amp device like the starter. By grounding only to the body, your starter and alternator must pass ground through the same medium as more sensitive accessories.

As a side note, what size exhaust are you running? WG plumbed in?

That does make a lot of sense; I will add another ground to the battery.

3inch, 1.0AR hot side of turbo, and wastegate is open with a short pipe.

Thanks!