aplscrambles

iTrader: (7)

I'm the OP. No plans to run 2000s in the near future. Certainly not in the primary position. That would be for someone with big power goals, high boost or e85, which I have absolutely no desire to run. Only looking to stay where I'm currently at which is ~400hp on pump e0 93 and keep duty cycle below 85%. I was just looking for a slightly better injector setup for idling, tip in, driveability etc. I've now got it sorted. Thanks to those of you in this thread who lent helpful comments.

RGHTBrainDesign

Fixed.

Yea, you're welcome brother. Just run the math and it's pretty easy. Change the fuel pump first and foremost, then go from there.

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

nothing wrong with the PFC ... perhaps a little limited with certain things, but calling it a turd and belongs in the garbage IMHO is wrong
it is a tried and trued ecu. half of the rx7 owners (if not more) use it; you get support and most people know how to play with it..
I switched ecus over the years and due to the simplicity and the ease of troubleshooting i went back to the pfc and i am quite happy with it.
as for the 2000s being too big for the secondaries, they are not... but perhaps not needed for 16psi boost
my 725s/2000s are maxed out at 30psi on an efr8374 (1.05 ewg)..

RGHTBrainDesign

It was okay to use in the 90s. Same **** for people running a 12-1 CAS on a rotary in today's day and age. Why?! If you're asking so much from the engine and only know where it's at 12pts on a full rotation, you're nuts...

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Yup, and simplicity, really? Must be cause I've been on the stand alone bandwagon for way too long! BTW - We were talking about 2000cc on the primaries, not secondaries...

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

I agree the PFC isn't garbage and would choose it over a handful of other crappy modern ecu's if I had to, but the un-debatable fact is the PFC has NO engine protection. If your fuel pump craps, filter clogs, injector clogs, voltage drops to the pump causing fuel pressure drop, air intake temp gets too high or any number of common failures occur then you risk running lean and detonating.

The PFC is great and does its job well but should anything in the system fail, change or even hiccup when you're in boost the ECU will just keep on spraying fuel and firing plugs as if all was fine. Even if the car is tuned and maintained perfectly, with time something will fail and if you don't have protection in place to catch it you may very well end up with a blown motor.

Skeese

Gilgamesh

Skeese, would a new ecu be able to tell if one of your injector connectors came loose?

This is what happened to my first engine, it had the shitty metal locking clips, I went with the spring loaded version after that.

dguy

iTrader: (8)

Under load (when engine protection is most often used) it would create a very lean condition. So yes.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Exactly. And you'd have an AFR based leanout cut that cuts the ignition if you cross into a preset dangerous lean condition in boost. If the car is tightly tuned you can set it aggressively close to the target and catch any issue.

Not to mention that EGT would tell you immediatly that you had an injector issue, and for that matter you could have any EGT split high enough trigger a limp mode to protect you there too. The software is very free form, the key is knowing WTF you're doing and why.


Skeese

TwinCharged RX7

iTrader: (14)

I've had mine on ID 2000 primaries and secondaries (staged) for 3+ years. Mild streetport, functioning IAC, no vacuum leaks, and much time tuning enrichments (start up, temp, etc)

Idles spot on at 800 rpm. For the first 1-2 minutes on cold start up it idles smoothly at 1350rpm. This is on an old and outdated electromotive TEC GT ecu.

Many people ditch the IAC when going to an aftermarket ecu. When I got my car over 10 years ago it was already single and I asked what an unplugged plug was for (new nothing at the time) and the tuner at the shop said, "ehh, IAC, don't worry about it". I quickly learned they are there for a reason.

Use the IAC and spend time tuning at idle and off throttle transitions and it will work fine.

cvzg77r

iTrader: (10)

This was a good read, I have an EFR 8374 and I have been wondering what injectors to run. Thanks guys great info on here.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

I've also been idling on ID2000's without any issue, but at about 1800 rpms on E85 at about a 12.5 AFR

I 100% agree on the ISC. People that that as the car becomes more and more modified that it becomes unnecessary, but in truth its the opposite. I've tuned stock and street port cars to crank, warm up, idle low, and come off throttle all extremely smooth and consistent without using an ISC. As the port increases and the idle air demand from engine becomes more choppy, violent and picky the ISC becomes damn near necessary to balance the airflow and keep things smooth-ish across the much wider range of engine behavior. I'm actually modding my intake to use a mac valve tied to the same ISC duty to extend my range of control with it.

Skeese

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

I agree it's nice to have idle air control even on a stripped-down race car. If you ditch the OEM ISC on an FD, at least keep the thermowax throttle stop to give it a little more air when cold.

The Mac valves most people use for boost control don't flow enough air to work well as an ISC. Look at Bosch IAC valves, they sell fancy aftermarket motorsport ones that are easy to retrofit by adding pipes or hoses. You can also find similar ones that were installed on some European cars. Google shows the one from the early 2000's 325i engines that looks similar to what I'm thinking of.
https://www.carparts.com/details/BMW...EPB313213.html

nickl

I'm also currently in the market to upgrade my fuel system, however, I'd love to use Bosch EV14 550cc primaries and 2000cc secondaries, the only concern I have is to get accurate injector data to put in the ECU. That's what I like about Injector Dynamics, but if I can avoid it, I'd rather not pay such a premium, especially since I'm importing to the EU, which makes everything even more expensive. My other idea was to just keep the stock primary rail and injectors, and upgrade the secondary rail, but I'd definitely need to clean my OEM primaries. I'd love to buy a new primary + secondary rail and put Bosch EV14 injectors in, to have it completely new.

Tuning4life

iTrader: (2)

I run an efr 8374 IWG.

I run a powerFC.

I run 650CC and 2000CC injectors on my car which are Bosch EV14's. Everything on my car runs great. I tuned the car myself with the powerFC and the car has never run smoother.

The problem with advanced ECU's is they are dependent on the inputs of a whole bunch of sensors, many which are not stock to the RX7. So you end up installing a whole slew of sensors, Fast reacting IAT sensor, Knock sensors, AFR widebands, Exhaust temp, etc, etc, etc. These are all installed somehow afterwards. What if one of these sensors fail? What if your Intake air temp sensor breaks off and goes through your turbo and engine (this has happened). What if these ecu's permenently run shitty because of problems with your aftermarket sensors? What if you short your rewire of your fuel pump and your car keeps shutting off? The stock systems are robust, The best solution IMO is to use the stock robust sensors and have things be steady. Then perform maintenance on the car.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Its not a matter of how great and smooth the car runs...NOW. Its a matter of longevity. If anything in your mechanical/fluid system has ANY problems, the PFC will keep on spraying and firing coils and you will blow that engine up.

All of these factors are addressed by:

1. Not running shitty cheap sensors, while most are re-branded, the majority of all of these "aftermarket" sensors trace back to legitimate manufactures like honeywell or bosch. Most of the quality replacements that are used derived from the OEM industry where sensor designs have gone through rigorous testing and reliability screening to quality for automotive use.
2. Knowing WHAT sensor you bought for WHAT purpose and using it in the correct application.
3. Using a high end ECU that allows for the sensor calibration of the input to be changed to match the data properties of the new sensor, which should come with said sensor if you bought a non-shitty one from a real manufacturer. If you have a PFC and your sensor input scalings are all hard coded into the ECU so that you are stuck running the factory sensors, that is an ancient ECU problem, not sensor problem.
4. Wiring things correctly, which is basically doing what the instructions say combined with a small level of electrical understanding, which isn't difficult.
5. If you do all of those things and the car still runs poorly, the tuner doesn't know what they are doing.

If you are incapable of selecting the right sensor for the application, buying a real sensor from a known manufacturer, wiring a sensor correctly, or copy and pasting scale data into a tune file then yes, you should probably stick with the factory 25+ year old electronics. Its a matter of competency, and it doesn't require alot.

Skeese

dguy

iTrader: (8)

No. You have the OPTION to run these extra and new sensors and expand functionality if you wish, also virtually every ECU that is worth a damn can be scaled correctly to run just fine off of the stock sensors, and furthermore to infer that sensors manufactured by Honeywell and company are somehow shittier because they are 'aftermarket' is stupid. Who do you think manufactured the sensors for Mazda?

Is the PFC simple? Sure, and this can be both a blessing and a curse. Can you easily overlook an issue with a more complex ECU and have a crappily running vehicle? Sure, though you also have a far more in depth set of tools for diagnostics.

Please don't preach information that is just patently not true.

RGHTBrainDesign

How the hell did you come up with Tuning4Life after a statement like that?! No.

The gentlemen above laid it out far more eloquently than necessary for you. If the three of us (always arguing on design or functionality ****) agree on something, that speaks worlds to how far off you are.

If an ECU doesn't have sensors, how the hell is it supposed to compensate the fuel model to make things efficient? That's right, let's just pull all of them off and lock timing too while we're at it.

Modern reliability comes in the form of knowing WHEN THINGS FAIL, as to implement a "limp home mode" or immediately cutting ignition to protect your expensive investment. We do that by a multitude of sensors and an ECU that recognizes what normal voltage and resistance values are for those sensors. You can put up warnings for things to flash a light on your dash or simply limit wastegate DC% or RPM. It makes absolutely no sense to argue that the simplicity of an ancient ECU is even remotely close to as safe or reliable as something modern.

Look, I call it laziness, but you can call it whatever you'd like. This topic was about the Fuel System, which I think I covered pretty thoroughly, and despite now knowing that information, it won't matter because your ECU doesn't understand it fully and cannot implement it correctly.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Apparently Tuning4Life only involves the use of the worlds most simple ECU that is software preconfigured to the unmodified factory platform and only works with factory sensors and wiring......but YOLO #2ning4lyfe bro

Skeese

aplscrambles

iTrader: (7)

I'm going against the grain, but this is the kind of post I was looking for when I started this thread. I'm of the same basic school of thought as this guy. Flame away. Most of us here aren't expert tuners with a wealth of knowledge of the latest and greatest standalones. A powerFC is tried and true, over and again for a reliable single turbo setup on pump gas. A basic, solid tune with mostly stock sensors and a fresh engine, correctly installed, with good cooling setups running good gas, a good ignition, big enough injectors, a sufficient fuel pump, should be able to run very well with a pfc. with a properly rich street and dyno tune. Not all of us want or need the ability to support 500+ hp, or a 20b or ethanol or whatever.

dguy

iTrader: (8)

Hey man, it's your chicken and you can choke it however you'd like. In fact if you've made an informed decision and you're looking for a simpler setup then I applaud you. The only beef I have with statements like his is the whole misinformation bit.

Neutron

iTrader: (10)

+1. Power FC with a Data Logit is super simple and even a novice can tune fairly decent with a little research.

That being said Tuning4life post was complete ignorance. Nothing about it was correct or makes any sense. It reminded me of my grandpa trying to tell me how horrible fuel injection was. He meant well but had no idea what he was talking about.

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

It seems normal (or at least, common) for people to pick a 'side' and then want to defend 'their side' simply because it's the one they picked. This can be especially true for aftermarket ECUs because they are expensive and complex. It's really unlikely that most enthusiasts can afford the time and money to learn more than one or two different ECUs on our own personal cars, so it's really difficult for most of us to truly make an valid claim like 'I have used both these ECUs and can tell you why I prefer this one.'

That said, there are tuners out there who have spent thousands of hours during their careers working with various ECUs on various platforms. I personally know a few tuners with that sort of experience, but they don't specialize in rotary engines so I'm not sure if their opinions would be very helpful for this discussion. Unfortunately the rotary scene is such a small niche it's hard to find experienced tuners who have worked with various ECUs and still chat about it on forums. Overall I'm still hopeful, and still interested to see these sorts of discussions. Hooray for forums, even if we've got limited amounts of info to work with.