All S5 plates are stronger than S4 plates, but not all S5 plates are created equal.

I ordered one from mazdaspeed a year or 2 ago and got the new one. you should be good to go.

Good info! I've been thinking about upgrading to the type 15 :icon_tup:

Don't discount the size of your HX and fans to cool it. Again water temp returning to the intercooler will have just as much of an effect on cooling as the size of the intercooler. To a point anyway, you do need overall surface area capacity in the intercooler to somewhat match it. Same problem as if you don't have enough air flowing through the external side of an air-to-air...

Peter, did BW tell you that the larger 80mm turbine wheel/housing has larger wastegate runners and/or doors? I can't find info anywhere.

The wheel is bigger but I'm pretty sure the wastegate runner/door size is the same.

It is the same "C" housing which is optimized for 58, 64,70, 74mm exhaust wheels according to BW.

You can read up on the specifics here (pg24). There is a section on WG flow as well.

http://www.full-race.com/articles/efrturbotechbrief.pdf

My 9180 seems to creep as bad or worse than the 8374. I'm hitting 17psi by 7000 with 0% DC on the controller. Im trying to turn the engine to 8500...
I have a 4" downpipe but a 3" resonator and old school 3" Racing Beat dual exhaust. Yesterday I swapped in a Turbosmart dual port actuator with the 7# spring and maybe 1/2 a turn of preload with a 4port solenoid. I was hoping the softer spring and less preload would get more stroke out of the internal gate. It didn't help at all. It DID help midrange a lot. I had the original open loop settings on my ECU and the thing made 17psi at 3800 in SECOND gear, so I'm happy about that at least. Dynoing next weekend hopefully.

I am not surprised with the size of your exhaust.

My FC held 8 psi with the 9180 IWG with a 2.5" catback. I did not know the catback had that big of a bottle neck inside of it( only figured that out once I cut it open). As soon as I moved to a 4" DP/MP with straight through 3 inch catbck it shot up to 18psi or so so on the top end. For those reading there is no reason to run the 9180 less than 20psi, unless its a really healthy ported engine. It will not make any more power than the 8374( below 20PSI) on a stock, medium or large SP motor in my experience. It really starts waking up past 25psi.

Looking forward to your dyno.

Hmm... I'm picking up a 9174 and I was actually planning on primarily running it below 20psi. I went with the 9174 over the 8374 primarily due to the theory that a larger turbo will make the same power with less effort, leading to a longer lifespan and greater chance of overall reliability. Response will suffer a little, but the EFRs seem to minimize that sacrifice.

Any thoughts on that approach (getting a 9180/9174 but only running it in the 350whp-450whp ranges)?

fendamonky
Quote:
I'm picking up a 9174 and I was actually planning on primarily running it below 20psi. I went with the 9174 over the 8374 primarily due to the theory that a larger turbo will make the same power with less effort, leading to a longer lifespan and greater chance of overall reliability. Response will suffer a little, but the EFRs seem to minimize that sacrifice.

Any thoughts on that approach (getting a 9180/9174 but only running it in the 350whp-450whp ranges)?

By less effort, you mean the larger compressor can be driven at a lower boost and make the same peak power as the smaller compressor at a higher boost?

I doubt this will be the case.

Yes, the engine can make the same peak power at a slightly lower boost.

But, the turbos share hot-side dimensions, so it is more effort (higher exhaust manifold pressure) for the motor to spin the larger compressor.

You would want an 8380 or an 8374 in the 1.45AR or an 8380 in the 1.45AR exhaust housing to achieve less effort on the motors part at the same peak power.

Your engine is working harder during lag from a larger compressor.

Your engine is working less hard during lag from a larger exhaust side.

Well, shoot... :lol:

fendamonky

Well, shoot...

On the other hand, with the larger compressor providing the same peak power at a lower boost you would be enjoying the benefit of lower intake air temperatures.

I wouldn't say that is letting your engine work less hard, but it can be less hard on the engine all other factors the same (which as pointed out above they would not be).

:crazy: Its a lot of factors to try to balance!

As a reference, I just had mine out to Summit Point on Sunday, in stank-ass hot conditions, running 13psi, with a new GReddy V-mount set up and turbine shield, and IATs stayed in the mid 40's, once getting as high as 52 in traffic. Just a month ago I was out without a turbine shield, and the best SMIC on the planet (CWR replica with Bell core), and IATs were hitting high 60's to 70.

I'd save yourself the hand wringing, and just get an 8374 and a good V-Mount set-up.

Are you running a vented bonnet Peter?

No vented hood (bonnet), though I have one I may try.

Impressive temps even without a vent. I hadn't planned to vent the hood/bonnet(wot wot) but it'd be interesting to see before and after data.

That's damn good temps considering how warm it was!!

I've been running a VMIC for years now, got it from RE:worx, a shop in the UK that I'm sure Marf knows of ;) it would keep temps at approx 10 deg over smbient regardless of boost or cruising. V-mounts are wonderful mods!!

Oh yes indeed, they're in the same town where my brother attended Uni :)

Yeah, that's pretty much the line of thinking that nudged me toward going larger.

(Sorry for the minor derail Peter.. Def gunna want/need to link up with you at Summit Point next year)

RE WORX needs better pics of the stuff on their site. But I digress.

Here's the video from last month at Summit, a shitty 1:25 on R888's. I HATE those tires. I strapped on two year old bald Hoosiers this time and ran 1:21.


Next month at Watkins Glen it should FLY. I've heard the new re-pave has so much grip, people are breaking stuff.

That's a fast lap :nod:

We just had another customer hold 15 psi with his cast IWG 9180 kit with the 3.5" downpipe option. Its also on a street ported engine with no Cat( rest of the exhaust is free flowing 3"). Car made 410rwhp on a mustang dyno( 470rwhp on a dynojet!)

I am really trying to figure out how is it possible to hold low boost with straight throught exahust system? I just swap out a SMB resonated midpipe with 3 inch sub cat, for the magnaflow resonated midpipe, I went for a test drive and in 3rd wot I hit 1:16 bar close to 16:50 psi, boost gauge show indentical reading witht he boost controoler off. Before i had the smb with the RB dual tip with the Boost controller off i hit 9 psi. I have the 8374 IWG kit.

My REW swapped RX-8 is holding 12psi with the 8374iwg, 3" exhaust.
I'm extremely happy with the response from my EFR :)

.

8374 Turblown cast manifold - 3" Exhaust, Aggressive Street Port, couldn't get it lower than 17.5psi up top. It would hold 15 (medium canister) all the way to 6000 and then start to creep. I can probably get it a bit lower with a smaller canister.

I'm going to toss in a high flow cat to quiet it down a bit anyway, so that restriction should add some BP and help me limit the boost. Also throwing in water injection for those times I need to run 91.

How big is your port? I have a decent size port and hold 15 to redline with the medium actuator.it wouldn’t want to hold least than 13 in the higher rpms

I have the IRP manifold and have no creep issues. Large streetport and EFR 8374 with a resonated mid pipe and RB dual tip. Graphs showing boost are in my thread.

That RB Dual dip is probably creating enough back pressure to keep the creep down. My exhaust is 3", no resonators and no cats. I'm going to throw in a restrictor or a high-flow cat to see if it reduces creep.

Healthy stock port FD Rx7 with our cast EFR IWG 8374 kit, pump gas, full 3" exhaust( no cat), medium BW actuator. 4th gear pull, holds 11~psi. See attached datalog. Please note this car does not go WOT until the midrange. I have since tuned it with the controller on, and it sees about 16 psi by 2900rpms( not fully ramped up all the way, but close).

And on the flip side recently Luck7Racing bought a 8374 IWG from us, and the customer wanted the turbo up higher. We don't make a " long runner" IWG manifold for the FD chassis so someone else built the manifold. On pump gas with a large street port, 9.4:1 rotors, and 3" open exhaust it crept up to 16.5 psi on the top end. I advised them to remove the T4 divider and WG divider in the turbine housing and the boost dropped to 7.5 psi through the entire rev range on their dyno( 4th gear for both before and after). No other changes besides porting. I tuned it in person and it made 353rwhp on pump only at 9.3psi. At 15psi it made 426rwhp. As I've said, and seen before the manifold design does not affect the creep, its solely based on WG flow in the turbine housing, size of the exhaust system, and how much the engine is flowing.

Hi , Thread resurrection - I have to disagree on fault placed on the turbo as i know what is causing my latest set up to Creep, I have previously been running a custom made turbo manifold with the standard efr iwg 8374 with a 3-inch downpipe for over 2 years absolutely no problem, this setup held boost rock solid at just under 15psi with the 2 x 7psi gate springs installed in the turbosmart Dual Port IWG75 actuator with the boost control turned off. I recently decided to Upgrade to the CAST Turblown Manifold to be greedy and try scavenge 100 rpm or so spool increase by running the short runner stubby cast manifold from turblown, But now i have developed heavy boost creep.

The only thing that has been swapped out is the Turblown Manifold and the Turblown 3inch downpipe that i purchased. I am really not sure where to go from here as i certainly won't be grinding away at my turbo housing when i know my previous setup had absolutely Zero boost creep.

15psi on your old manifold was already "creep" or at least high threshold, I'd say your option is to go back to the old setup, or port the housing. What's the old manifold look like?

Interestingly, I had a motor go low compression (80psi), and it slowed the spool down (3500rpm for 15 psi from about 28-900), and made the car feel a little "flatter" overall, but it did nothing to the boost threshold. Still the same 12-13psi on spring pressure with ported housing.

P

I had no boost creep at all, the 14psi spring held the boost from low rpm right through to redline, i say 15psi as that's what my mechanical boost gauge said but it was spring pressure.

Are you sure you didnt mis align the actuator with the re install ?

Is the tune over soft? Ie super rich and not much advance ? This causes creep, happens on all engines as you basically antilag the engine...

Hi, er well my tune is 10.9 afr with 15 timing at the moment but i start to creep at 5500rpm

it could be in the tune i suppose now the manifold is different for sure

I am going to try and re-clock the turbo housing and actuator and compare it against a stock mounting position considering the actuator bracket enables you to install the actuator where it's not designed to fit as i pulled the whole lot off yesterday so i may aswel have a mess around.

This is flawed logic. Your entire powerplant setup is a synergistic system, if you start changing one you'll have to investigate the faults of another. The ecosystem of your intake/exhaust/etc has been changed and is now out-flowing the capabilities of your IWG. In essence your wastegate is the little fat kid. Want him to keep up? Slow down (restrict your exhaust) or make him lose weight (port your wastegate).

Before you go clocking your turbo, etc., just wire the wastegate door wide open and go for a drive.

Another customs was just on the dyno this morning. Full cast 8374 IWG kit, pump gas, 3" full exhaust, large streetport. Held 10 psi. 15 psi made 450rwhp on a mustang dyno; Adaptronic modular remotely tuned by Shawn.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...3c06317b1a.jpg

how much of this have to do with boost control strategy?
perhaps closed loop control with proper PID tuning will make a difference on the IWG setup?

9174 Cast IWG kit ( full 4" exhaust, half bridge). 14.5psi turbosmart actuator. Zero creep. 528rwhp @ 15 psi( pump with meth) Adaptronic FD PNP.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...de7b85ad31.jpg

I’m running closed loop boost control and am holding 15psi quite nicely. I have a fair bit of preload on the wastegate actuator as well.

Not to slam Shawn on here, but that setup should be making quite a bit more power on the bottom end. There's a few things he should be looking into for the tuning with immediacy.

I had creep issues with 8374 iwg and 3,5" straight pipe. it crept to 1.3bar (19psi) by 5500rpm even if i wired the wastegate full open.
What i did was that i removed the divider leading to the wastegate without touching the manifold flange much. Enlarged the hole between the 2 runner around the same size as the wastegate. After that it was 0.8b (11psi)all the way to 8krpm without any noticeable difference in spool or anything.

Here is some pictures. Hope this helps people that have similar issue with these turbos.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...88a854f875.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...ed5def5df9.jpg

Hi thank you for this, As suspected Junk manifold design. Looks like i am going to have to do the same , have you got any more photos from any other different angles of the work you did? Its a shame to have to butcher up a $650 manifold because they don't work properly for the iwg efr application they were sold for.

Sorry forgot to mention that im running a manifold that i made myself. I dont want to talk down anyones manifolds that i havent seen or tested in real life.

I believe that the boost creep comes from the turbo exhaust housing design. There are reports of boost creep in piston engines also.

Porting the wastegate is pretty straight forward. Remove the housing. Grind away the divider leading to the wastegate until you think it flows well. Just a regular day with a 2k$ turbo.

We've recently had 3 more customers finish up their 8374 IWG tunes, and all of them held 11-13 psi to redline in 4th gear( 3" full exhaust).

3.5" or bigger will always cause boost creep, again same for the VAST majority of all EWG setups too. Anytime the turbine wheel can really breath, its puts more demand on WG flow( as long as you aren't turbine wheel/compressor wheel flow limited).

Just to be clear and to make sure people don't mistakenly agree with you, you're not looking at the manifold, you're looking at the turbo/turbine housing itself. In the real world (in my opinion) manifold design isn't really going to do shit on an IWG systems propensity to creep, what will are all the left over casting slag, core shift, and hard edges etc in the casting process.

Read: If you're going to run an IWG at the LEAST pull the turbine housing off and take the worst tool known to man (Dremel) to it and spend a couple hours smoothing the wastegate path even if it seems like you're not gaining much.

This is my semi-heuristic ( I have a flow bench, and try to always do some sort of rudimentary comparative analysis on parts meant to flow though its far from an optimal protocol) approach to the IWG vs EWG debate so don't take it as gospel.

Manifold has a huge impact on internal wastegate turbos in my experience.

Had 60-1 hifi with p trim exhaust wheel in S5TII manifold and bored out exhaust housing. Crazy boost creep on my 3.5" exhaust. Ported wastegates, added 60mm external wg with huge wg ports- still creep. Ported S5 exhaust manifold to reduce the velocity stack and ported turbo housing as well up to the wastegate runners- boom, no boost creep.

Cast IWG shorty manifold does also have some velocity stack off of the exhaust ports would have to port manifold and turbo exhaust housing up to the wg runners to lower velocity so exhaust can turn out into the wg runners.

We have differing experiences. I've just ported the turbine up the the gate runners and seen the same.