TeamRX8

iTrader: (2)

I believe it's because the other compressors don't have that level of stable dynamic range. Despite the frame size and wheel diameter differences the max stall flow difference between them is only 4 lb/hr.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

No one is operating the 7670 at the surge line yet on a rotary. Just barely into surge on the 8374.


Because nobody is aiming for that end of the powerband with their turbine housing choices .... it's just not the conventional thing to do, especially on this forum ...

Well yes. I am afraid we are going to have to agree to agree with each other on this point.

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As I have said before, a S5 stock hybrid with the EFR 7163 put into exhaust housing of a S5 RX-7 TII turbo would be bad ***.

Its got a fully divided and dual internal wastegate 1.00AR T25 manifold and turbo exhaust housing that would be a bad *** high boost 350rwhp race gas turbo on a 13BT or 13B-REW.

That is a better manifold/turbo exhaust side combo for the peripheral exhaust port rotary and the EFR 7163 than you can put together with the BW exhaust housing choices in my opinion.

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Would pre-turbo water/meth injection help extend the choke line a bit further out on a 7670?

ColinShark

It would. But we lack maps or data.

I'd do it, but I lack an EFR. It's what I'll be doing on my stock hybrid.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

There are drag racers who use BOVs, wastegates, or DBW throttle bodies between the compressor and the throttle to produce a controlled vent during surge situations. Also allows full shaft speed during closed throttle, launch control situations. Motec and Syvecs, that I know of, have specific controls for these applications. You could probably build something similar with the Haltech Elite to run it in closed loop like Motec and Syvecs.

Combine that with a control strategy based on turbine shaft speed, where you don't have to be concerned with overspending the compressor, and you have a pretty potent combination.

zaque

Right exactly.
The 7163 seems to be the most engineered of the line, while the others seem to be more... borrowed to fill SKUs, if that makes sense. It was made for race engines, after all, before more turbine and compressor sizes were added to fill a line up.

The 7163 .80 a/r only seems to suffer a roughly 2.5-7.5% torque less to the 7670 while it comes on whole 30% quicker.
The 7163 flows much better than it sounds like when you think of turbos of that given a/r, turbine, and compressor wheel size.
Comparing to the stock twins, it should hit 10psi only about 10% (180rpm) later than the stock twins do, while EMP seems to be over 30% lower. Actually, I think you really want to look at the Engine Delta Pressure, in which case you end up with close to half what the stock twins are at at 7000RPM.
It seems to me that the 7163 should hit around 380-410hp at the crank without a lot of trouble, roughly in line with that Blue said.
Add to that, from what I can see, the 7163 should safely keep the engine over 390-340 lb-ft of torque(at the crank) from 4500-7300 rpm on pump gas and 10-13psi. That's a really nice power band.

Actually, if your goal was to keep the EMP (one of the key impacters to reliability) within margin of what the stock twins put on, you could run 18 psi tapering down to 13 psi on the 7163 and you're looking at 400+ lb-ft of torque and near 500hp at the crank, I believe, on pump gas. Though I wouldn't think that high of psi would be safe on pump gas, it's still what the turbo itself is capable of delivering. You could do it on race gas.

I don't think a theoretical "7170" would actually be good, because the turbine of the 7163 seems to simply flow better and is lighter.
It just really needs a 1.05-1.32 A/R hot side with IWG. It's really a huge shame we can't get it speced like that. Its compressor map is pretty ideal but the somewhat restrictive hotside limits how well it pairs.
You can use a 1.05 T4 flang which lowers peak EMP almost 10%, but using an EWG hinders aerodynamics nearly to the point that you may as well be using the 0.80 T4.

I think a lot of people overlook the turbo because they think it must choke the rotary like a GT3071. Really, it flows much, much better than a GT3576 from what I can gather. People also seem to overlook that it has a 3" exducer.
But, frankly, the 7163 makes the 7670 look bad. The 7670 is hardly any less restrictive and hardly gives any more top end for all its drawbacks compared to the 7163. But the 7670 is still better than other turbos its size, even with the Garrets having been recently refreshed.
And when most people go single turbo in an RX-7, I guess they are looking for lots of power. Whereas the 7163 is like the stock twins except lighter, more reliable(via the lower EMP), less complicated. But that's a lot of money to spend to basically just modernize the car rather than make it very significantly (400whp+) more powerful.

Bah. It's been 2 years since I first started thinking about this. Hope I can actually try it out within the next 2.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

How are you arriving at lower EMP values for EFR 7163 than stock HT12 twin turbos?

Two 51mm exhaust wheels with little shaft/nut for area and a each with 0.60AR each for combined 1.20AR.

The HT12 exhaust housings do look tiny, but if you took a 1.00AR T4 divided exhaust housing and cut it in half so each scroll was separate the T4 divided 1.00AR exhaust housing is smaller. Hell, just put the two HT12 exhaust gaskets over a divided T4 exhaust gasket.

RGHTBrainDesign

Damn it Chris, we'll be talking about Syvecs over the New Year. I'm downloading the software tomorrow and exploring thoroughly.

Either S6+ or S8 for my needs (DBW, a bunch of analog I/O, Flex Fuel, 6x Injectors, 4x IGN-1A Direct Fire Coils, Pressure/Temp everything, Power Steering Pump Control, OMP Control, traction control, yaw sensor, boost by gear, FLEX FUEL, Boost By Ethanol Content, etc). Sadly, I'm still having to "cut corners" on the Haltech Elite 2500's lack of inputs. It's SO frustrating because I love the software and have spent dozens upon dozens of hours refining these basemaps. Maybe this is my answer...

Zepticon

iTrader: (1)

How would you rate the Syvecs vs Haltech and Adaptronic ecus?
Oviously «simple and easy» is out the door or i would use Apexi, and i love to tinker.
And i want to be able to emulate all aspects of the stock ECU, including emissions, and also add custom stuff like water/meth. I know Haltec offer video-out with gauges that i can put on the stereo-screen, any similar on Syvecs.

The setup will most likely be BNR twins

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Syvecs rates at the top of the game and Haltech's a close second. The big turn off for most with the Syvecs is the software. The software was written by engineers, for engineers and that shows. It's not pretty, it's not as intuitive as Haltech, and it's best navigated with keystrokes. If you can get past that, you have a system that's superior in almost every aspect. In the end, IMO, it's a highly accurate system that has been used and proven at the highest levels of motorsport. With Syvecs you get the same knock control, traction control, boost control, DBW, etc., that's been used at LeMans by professional sports car teams. Quite literally. At the end of the day, it's the programmer that needs to take advantage of those tools, but it is a superior basis platform.

Syvecs has a couple apps available that allow customized displays and cal switching through touch screen displays. The CAN bus output is user configurable so you could also mirror something like Haltech's protocol to adapt the system to another 3rd party platform.

eage8

iTrader: (9)

Off topic... Why can't you just get a CAN expansion box?

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

He can. One of things you can start looking at from a cost to benefit point of view though is once you start adding up the expansion boxes and 3rd party pieces, you quickly narrow the price gap between something like Haltech and Syvecs.

Brettus

Looking at matchbot turbine maps ...I found nothing there that supports this.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (2)

I don’t agree with that either for the 6000+ rpm/power range, but still believe the 7163 would make for a super zippy, highly responsive low-end street car runabout with the proper low-mount setup. Throw in some E85 and twist it up quick down low and it’d seem rather wicked to me for that specific off-idle to maybe the occasional 7000 rpm redline range purpose. I get the high rpm power deal that most people want, but look at what those larger turbos do down low and this idea makes me want to giggle and grin if done to proper execution.

RGHTBrainDesign

*Off Topic*
****, that's actually a great idea if I were to adapt my RGHTBrainDesign 13BT Turbo Kit to it and in the canyons, it would be NASTY (and fun!).

The Haltech I/O box + Elite 2500 is most likely what I'm going to do. The Interface and Price Point is a nice balance (although after talking with Haltech at SEMA this year, I should wait a few more months). The MoTec M1 Build (Development Level) Unlock + M150 or M150 GPR Level Rotary ECU dropped BIG TIME in the last few days. The Syvecs system is SO powerful and SO feature-filled, but if you don't gain a few gray hairs after a day of testing with it, I'm going to assume you were bald to begin with.

After spending a few hours again with each today, Interface of the MoTec is by far the most polished, followed by Haltech (amazing interface), and Syvecs hurts my eyes. That being said, Features Per Dollar from the Syvecs trumps everyone, and should be an absolute Go-To Top 3 pick for anyone looking to push the envelope with their tuning or building progression. Thank you Chris for the support, and I can't wait to see a Rotary Engine map of yours to see how close mine is after a few hours of going through everything. LMS-EFI FTW!

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

I'm not sure why I'm just now adding to this, but the original post from Chris is talking about my car, and I never thought to mention that sometime after I got back to Colorado with the car, I noticed there was about an inch long gap where the end tank wasn't welded to the IC core (on the turbo side), so who knows how much power it actually would have made, etc.

I have since switched to the 8374 with internal wastegate. It spools quick but not quite as quick as the 7670 and it has a little more top end. It's a good linear power band.

Ed Mendez

What do you think of the Adaptronic ECU? Thank you

Run/Stop/Restore

Can somebody provide a base calibration file for a 13b? I think about getting a Syvecs S6+ but i want to actually see the functionality to drive the OMP over the H-Bridge. The Example Cal file provided by Syvecs is based on the old F88 Life Racing Firmware and obviously doesnt support any Rotary functions such as OMP, Split Ignition etc..

Thanks

RGHTBrainDesign

It's my understanding that you build that logic table yourself. On the Emtron KV8 for instance I'm taking my Fuel Mass Calculation and multiplying it by a ratio (100:1 for the most part) and then outputting as a linear 0-5v to control the electronic OMP. Simple, stackable logic trees that have infinite control... That's kind of how you should approach this ECU as well.

Another approach is paying Chris a few hours of tuning time and letting him go over it with you.

Run/Stop/Restore

You're right, i just talked to the Life Racing Sales Guys at the World Motorsport Expo and they explained it the same way. I assumed when Syvecs announced the OMP Rotary support that they have a preconfigured logic for that purpose.

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

I know everybody talks about features and setup.
More importantly for me, how well does it read the trigger setup and how stable is timing?
Have had so many issues with the haltech elite and timing, looking for something more consistent.

RGHTBrainDesign

I went over my logic strategy on my Emtron KV8 Support thread if anyone needs a bit of help on their Syvecs...

I'm pretty sure Emtron, Syvecs, and Motec do not have this issue. Well aware of what you're talking about. I've only seen it via your video. Everyone else seems to have zero issues or has a baked in offset vs. RPM.

Slides

Same person

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Run/Stop/Restore

Hi Chris,

thanks for clarification. I actually don't remember where i got the info that Syvecs announced OMP support but i propably mixed up your statement in another thread with a offical syvecs statement. Sorry for that.

Best Regards
Felix