Borg Warner EFR 9180
11-07-14, 01:28 PM
#28
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
i had what turned out to be an almost 3 week delay due to having only one working fuel injector. i thought it wouldn't delay me from the Tex Mile but it turned out that neither a fuel injection shop in Milwaukee or Chicago could get them to flow as they were internally rusted from sitting in E85... oh well.
on the positive side i now am running a new style injector which supposedly is rust resistant... if so, this could be a plus for E85 apps.
my current remaining hurdle is getting a new Odyssey PC925 battery. i ordered it today as it decided not to work after ten happy years...
here's a couple of pics of my engine compartment. as soon as i get it running it will be up to Green Bay/Beyond Redline for a bit of touch up work and then the GT4094r will be dynoed out as a comparison for my EFR 9180 which will immediately follow.
still very much loving my V88 Brad.
on the positive side i now am running a new style injector which supposedly is rust resistant... if so, this could be a plus for E85 apps.
my current remaining hurdle is getting a new Odyssey PC925 battery. i ordered it today as it decided not to work after ten happy years...
here's a couple of pics of my engine compartment. as soon as i get it running it will be up to Green Bay/Beyond Redline for a bit of touch up work and then the GT4094r will be dynoed out as a comparison for my EFR 9180 which will immediately follow.
still very much loving my V88 Brad.
Last edited by IB Advertising; 06-24-15 at 12:28 PM.
11-07-14, 08:06 PM
#31
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
when i switched to E85 i swapped in four EV 14 2000/2200 Bosch injectors. they worked fine other than they do present a problem.
they were designed for propane busses in Europe and have a poly seat that can swell w alcohol. the other probably more important consideration is they are prone to rust. the dynamic element, valve, is ferris metal and rusts when in contact w water. alcohol is a water magnet so unless they are run often things happen.
this isn't my first run in w what water can do to an injector. a few years ago i was running my AI thru EV 14 1000 cc injectors. i ran 100% meth for a year and it worked perfectly. i decided to add a pre turbo injector and switched to 50/50 water meth. one injector totally shut down in less than a week and the other barely flowed. i was aware that water and injectors don't mix well but thought it would be a maintenance item. it was, only weekly, not yearly.
i have worked w Jon at Fuel Injector Connection for a number of years and when i called him to get another set of 2000s for E85 he pretty much made me switch to the new Bosch/ASNU offering. based off the EV14, no poly anything in the injector and according to Jon and ASNU they work well w E85... they may have found a way around the rust problem.
the injectors flow 1650 at 43.5 and 2000 at 58 static. i am only at 54% duty w my 4 2000s so they will be more than adequate for me.
i did contact ID about them and they have flowed a few and find the delivery varies between injectors. they also said they are working on a similar injector hoping to offer it at 1750 but it is a year away.
i look forward to testing my 1650s in the very near future.
if you go to ASNU's site you will find addt'l info.
hc
they were designed for propane busses in Europe and have a poly seat that can swell w alcohol. the other probably more important consideration is they are prone to rust. the dynamic element, valve, is ferris metal and rusts when in contact w water. alcohol is a water magnet so unless they are run often things happen.
this isn't my first run in w what water can do to an injector. a few years ago i was running my AI thru EV 14 1000 cc injectors. i ran 100% meth for a year and it worked perfectly. i decided to add a pre turbo injector and switched to 50/50 water meth. one injector totally shut down in less than a week and the other barely flowed. i was aware that water and injectors don't mix well but thought it would be a maintenance item. it was, only weekly, not yearly.
i have worked w Jon at Fuel Injector Connection for a number of years and when i called him to get another set of 2000s for E85 he pretty much made me switch to the new Bosch/ASNU offering. based off the EV14, no poly anything in the injector and according to Jon and ASNU they work well w E85... they may have found a way around the rust problem.
the injectors flow 1650 at 43.5 and 2000 at 58 static. i am only at 54% duty w my 4 2000s so they will be more than adequate for me.
i did contact ID about them and they have flowed a few and find the delivery varies between injectors. they also said they are working on a similar injector hoping to offer it at 1750 but it is a year away.
i look forward to testing my 1650s in the very near future.
if you go to ASNU's site you will find addt'l info.
hc
Last edited by IB Advertising; 06-24-15 at 12:28 PM.
11-09-14, 04:21 AM
#32
It's interesting you happened to post this now as I am experiencing what I think is the same issue with my ID2000s. After only sitting for 1 month I have no fuel entering the engine. I sent the injectors to ID for evaluation 3 weeks ago and am still awaiting results. Like you, I knew about the issues with leaving E85 in the lines for extended periods without running the car, but I thought Id have at least 2-3 months before having to worry. Especially in the typical hot and dry Southern California climate. The injectors literally have zero miles on them and were only used to idle the car a few times. What a (expensive) shame if they are now trash.
It seems like people's experiences with this vary quite a bit. I've read many accounts of E85 left sitting for 6-12 months with no negative affect.
It's unfortunate that these big injectors suffer from this problem as most applications calling for 2000+cc flow are going to revolve around E85.
It seems like people's experiences with this vary quite a bit. I've read many accounts of E85 left sitting for 6-12 months with no negative affect.
It's unfortunate that these big injectors suffer from this problem as most applications calling for 2000+cc flow are going to revolve around E85.
11-30-14, 01:50 PM
#34
12-13-14, 06:41 PM
#36
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Borg Warner sent me an RPM sensor last week. the instructions were to keep it below 116,000 RPM.
'lots of very neat turbo stuff around the corner including news re the 9180...
it appears that we ought to have around 3 9180 results soon.
howard
'lots of very neat turbo stuff around the corner including news re the 9180...
it appears that we ought to have around 3 9180 results soon.
howard
Last edited by IB Advertising; 06-24-15 at 12:29 PM.
12-13-14, 07:12 PM
#37
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"What fuel injectors did you have in there that rusted? I'm planning on switching to E85"
i returned (today) from PRI/Indianapolis. i spoke w Bosch, ID, and Fuel Injector Clinic specifically about fuel injectors/alcohol and rust.
i learned a bunch but what i learned simply re-enforced my general understanding...
alcohol (ethanol/methanol) absorbs water from the atmosphere.
if you have E85 you have water in your ethanol.
2200 fuel injector internals are rust prone. the injector was designed for European busses running on natural gas. both the seat and the valve do not work well w alcohol over a period of time.
given that a fuel injector is an extremely precise mechanical device any accumulation of rust can be... not good.
the fuel injector industry is quite busy developing an alternative.
Bosch/Europe has collaborated w ASNU and Fuel Injector Clinic to create an alcohol happy injector, the 1650.
ID has worked w Bosch Motorsports/USA and offers the 1350 which may be of similar nature.
i have the ASNU/Bosch 1650s in my motor.
i was very impressed w Fuel Injector Clinic as to the (major) amount of technical work they have done as well as the data they offer on each injector they sell.
if you are going E85, or if you are running E85 and have the 2000 injectors i suggest you might spend some time chatting w Bryan Troll at Fuel Injector Clinic re his Data Match program.
i do feel that whether you end up w the ID 1300s, Fuel Injector Clinic 1650s, or Fuel Injector Connection ASNU 1650s... talk w all 3 companies. do not skip Bryan.
i will be very interested as to what i can do w 6600 CC Gross.
howard
i returned (today) from PRI/Indianapolis. i spoke w Bosch, ID, and Fuel Injector Clinic specifically about fuel injectors/alcohol and rust.
i learned a bunch but what i learned simply re-enforced my general understanding...
alcohol (ethanol/methanol) absorbs water from the atmosphere.
if you have E85 you have water in your ethanol.
2200 fuel injector internals are rust prone. the injector was designed for European busses running on natural gas. both the seat and the valve do not work well w alcohol over a period of time.
given that a fuel injector is an extremely precise mechanical device any accumulation of rust can be... not good.
the fuel injector industry is quite busy developing an alternative.
Bosch/Europe has collaborated w ASNU and Fuel Injector Clinic to create an alcohol happy injector, the 1650.
ID has worked w Bosch Motorsports/USA and offers the 1350 which may be of similar nature.
i have the ASNU/Bosch 1650s in my motor.
i was very impressed w Fuel Injector Clinic as to the (major) amount of technical work they have done as well as the data they offer on each injector they sell.
if you are going E85, or if you are running E85 and have the 2000 injectors i suggest you might spend some time chatting w Bryan Troll at Fuel Injector Clinic re his Data Match program.
i do feel that whether you end up w the ID 1300s, Fuel Injector Clinic 1650s, or Fuel Injector Connection ASNU 1650s... talk w all 3 companies. do not skip Bryan.
i will be very interested as to what i can do w 6600 CC Gross.
howard
Last edited by IB Advertising; 06-24-15 at 12:29 PM.
12-15-14, 09:42 AM
#40
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Howard, it was nice meeting you and chatting at PRI last week. I was so busy, glad you were able to meet some of the engineering team. Yes - 116k is the strongly recommended "hard limit" on EFR9180 shaft speed. I know some people go past this, but there is no benefit and not healthy for the turbo. Elliot - sorry i did not see you there
edit: howard the deatschworks 1500 is another bosch injector thats pretty attractive for E85 apps
edit: howard the deatschworks 1500 is another bosch injector thats pretty attractive for E85 apps
12-16-14, 10:12 AM
#42
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you can see the max speed is 140k rpm (aka 560m/s tip speed on a 70mm wheel)
01-31-15, 08:48 AM
#46
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
i may have something to add next week. as of friday all my lines and exhaust are fixtured. Luke wants to re-visit the gas map before switching over to E85.
fuel injectors are the new 1650 ASNU/Bosch and supposedly will not rust. my four 2000/2200 injectors were at 54% duty at 575 so it will be interesting to see what we can get from the 1650s on E85.
i am using Valvoline Pro-V Karting Oil (no caster) as a premix and have a bunch of summer blend E85 stashed.
i do have a turbo RPM sensor and plan to log it. while i bought my 9180, Borg Warner sent me the RPM sensor gratis which makes me think they are serious re RPM limits... hmmm.
i will also be logging turbo back pressure, two egts and IAT out of the turbo and into the engine w accurate to the mS thermocouples.
my primary objective currently is settling on the best turbo for the upcoming (less than 60 days) Texas Mile. i do believe if i bring 600 hp i can get it done and am not particularly interested in running much past 600 but i am very interested in getting everything i can in the RPM midrange.
the plan will be to fully evaluate the 9180, send the data to Dan Barlog at Precision and have him make the call as to which Precision to run. his current thinking is the Precision CEA GEN2 6466.
of course plans can change w the first bullet in the air... /credit Eisenhower/
i will be very interested in any differences in IAT, backpressure and EGTs between the two turbos. efficiency promotes longevity as well as power.
as to rx72c's spark issue, i am never surprised re ignition issues as we make so much power from such small displacement ignition has to be like pounding a nail into granite. it often takes a dyno plot on zero smoothing to spot misfires. in my most recent case i couldn't tell from being in the car on a pull but it was evident from the tiny wiggles from peak torque on the power plot. we tightened up the gap and it was all good.
after that incident i installed a Kenne Bell Boost A Spark. it functions like the Boost A Pump in that it only works in boost and provides additional voltage to the coils. i run my IGN-1A coils at 16 V in boost. we may be able to widen the plug gap a bit.
howard
fuel injectors are the new 1650 ASNU/Bosch and supposedly will not rust. my four 2000/2200 injectors were at 54% duty at 575 so it will be interesting to see what we can get from the 1650s on E85.
i am using Valvoline Pro-V Karting Oil (no caster) as a premix and have a bunch of summer blend E85 stashed.
i do have a turbo RPM sensor and plan to log it. while i bought my 9180, Borg Warner sent me the RPM sensor gratis which makes me think they are serious re RPM limits... hmmm.
i will also be logging turbo back pressure, two egts and IAT out of the turbo and into the engine w accurate to the mS thermocouples.
my primary objective currently is settling on the best turbo for the upcoming (less than 60 days) Texas Mile. i do believe if i bring 600 hp i can get it done and am not particularly interested in running much past 600 but i am very interested in getting everything i can in the RPM midrange.
the plan will be to fully evaluate the 9180, send the data to Dan Barlog at Precision and have him make the call as to which Precision to run. his current thinking is the Precision CEA GEN2 6466.
of course plans can change w the first bullet in the air... /credit Eisenhower/
i will be very interested in any differences in IAT, backpressure and EGTs between the two turbos. efficiency promotes longevity as well as power.
as to rx72c's spark issue, i am never surprised re ignition issues as we make so much power from such small displacement ignition has to be like pounding a nail into granite. it often takes a dyno plot on zero smoothing to spot misfires. in my most recent case i couldn't tell from being in the car on a pull but it was evident from the tiny wiggles from peak torque on the power plot. we tightened up the gap and it was all good.
after that incident i installed a Kenne Bell Boost A Spark. it functions like the Boost A Pump in that it only works in boost and provides additional voltage to the coils. i run my IGN-1A coils at 16 V in boost. we may be able to widen the plug gap a bit.
howard
01-31-15, 10:34 AM
#47
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"Just made 542rwhp on 30psi and we are still only at 7k
car is on 93 Oct fuel and is blowing out spark
cranes not powerful enough
I'm fairly sure it'll make 600rwhp on the same boost
still climbiing before it blows out spark"
this is a 12A, right? if so, it is worthy of note that the motor is 1.3L rather than our normal 1.6.
car is on 93 Oct fuel and is blowing out spark
cranes not powerful enough
I'm fairly sure it'll make 600rwhp on the same boost
still climbiing before it blows out spark"
this is a 12A, right? if so, it is worthy of note that the motor is 1.3L rather than our normal 1.6.
Last edited by IB Advertising; 06-24-15 at 12:29 PM.
01-31-15, 06:07 PM
#50
Arrogant Wankeler
Never mind, not 12a, was gonna say, that puts you in the top 5% of power output for displacement/boost/engine setup on a non oxygenated fuel rotary.
Still a decent number for excess water if you are working on the tune. Assuming it has decent compression I would think the parts should be good for towards 600rwhp at the same rpm and boost if you can match your water/fuel delivery/ignition a bit better.
Guessing you should be able to top out at 650rwhp for real peak power revs with tune tidied up and strong ignition, perhaps more depending on the port and what the compressor is good for.
Still a decent number for excess water if you are working on the tune. Assuming it has decent compression I would think the parts should be good for towards 600rwhp at the same rpm and boost if you can match your water/fuel delivery/ignition a bit better.
Guessing you should be able to top out at 650rwhp for real peak power revs with tune tidied up and strong ignition, perhaps more depending on the port and what the compressor is good for.