10th AE "Drag Car" finally coming off the backburner...looking for advice.
 

I've been putting this off for a while now, but its finally time to get my car back to the track.

Some quick history of my "drag car": 10th AE TII, PB so far was a 12.1 @ 116. Setup was exhaust ported 13B, BNR Stage 4 at 13lbs, stock trans, stock rear, street tires on 18's.

For my new setup, I'm shooting for 600rwhp with a 20B and GT4202. My weight goal is sub 2000lbs race weight. My ET goal is mid to high 9's, anything less than that will be a bonus. I already have my GT4202 and a couple of other items: Aeromotive A1000, 100 micron and 10 micron filters, 5 gal fuel cell.

I obviously have the car, and its close to being stripped to my liking, but I have a few more things that I would like to do to save some weight.

I know I want to run a Mazda trans, and Mazda IRS. Although limiting, these are pretty important to me, for now.

I have most of the car built in my head, but its def incomplete.

Some things that I am 95% sure of on the car are: 20B ported/studded, GT4202, Mazda Trans, Mazda Rearend, Mazda IRS, no exterior body modifications, completely stripped interior except for dash shell, alum seat(s), electric water pump, Q16 fuel, A1000 pump, and Weld 2.0 wheels (same ones Beefcake uses).

I still havent decided on many things:
*EMS (Leaning towards Haltech, but still in talks with my tuner)
*A2W intercooler (Unsure of what brand to go with)
*Exhaust manifold (might get it custom built)
*Tires (MT full slick most likely)
*Cage design (nhra min, or more)
*Radiator and other neccesary cooling components. (Seen some guys run Honda radiator off to one side)
*Clutch (I'm leaning with ACT MAXX Xtreme)
*Pulleys (not like they matter too much, but I enjoyed the Gilmers I used to have)
*Battery (There is a small motorcycle battery I've seen many of the FD guys use)
*Wastegate(s) (I dont know if I should go big single, or duals...also unsure of brand, and just sold 2 synapse 40mm's)

I know I'm forgetting a million other little things, but hopefully this thread will help me to remember them and also to keep a log of my progress.

I'm looking for all kinds of ideas, and advice. Sometimes I hate to stick my head out like this, but there is too much knowledge and experience on the forum for me not to ask...the worst I can get is "no reply".

If it's going to be a 100% drag car I would suggest going 2 rotor, alky or e98 set up and clutchless tranny. With that you don't have to worry about the exspense of a 20b nor what about happens when or if u pop a motor. Alky 2 rotor with a well built motor and a 75 mm turbo or larger you should have no problem hitting 700rwhp and at 2000lb and add a clutchless tranny you should have a 8 sec. Car.

Just my opinion.

Why a 20B?

A few things:

-Wastegate: for a 20B I can't see the benefit of running duals, I feel like a single 60mm should be enough? Hopefully someone w/ experience can chime in, but I just don't see the point of 2.
-A2W intercooler: The one I was running before popping my block was This one from Frozen Boost. It was holding the air charge below ambient (at water temperature) up to 25psi on a 67mm billet precision turbo, I was impressed, and the price is right. I was using a heat exchanger up front as well, to fill the IC hole more than anything, but I"m sure it helped.
-Clutch: Regardless of which brand/route you go with, sintered iron disks are the way to go. I have a 7.25" sintered iron dual, and it's cat's ass. Holds like a MF'er, sourcing the flywheel is the tricky part though, apparently.

GL with your build! I also have a 10th AE that is once again on the backburner with a new family along, here's some inspiration for your cage/project!

Attachment 696685

Attachment 696686

Just as an FYI, a 1st gen DSM main hoop like This one I believe from Competition Engineering fits the roof/b-pillar of the FC really nicely. That's what I used.

Edit: Running the FC2000 style bumper from someone like ShineAuto allows you to save quite a bit of weight on headlights/motors/reinforcement in that area. Attachment 696687

Agreed on the 2-rotor. With your power goal, the 20B would just be added weight and a huge added expense.

Wastegate choice is matched with how much boost.you. plan on running.

Plan on running a lot.of boost? 1 small wastegate will do.

Plan on having total boost control and occasionally use very low boost? Then use large or multiple waste gates. Or both.

Thanks for the reply's guys. I really do appreciate them.

Even though I am/was 95% sure of the 20B, you guys bring up a couple of big points that I'm now considering: $4k to $5k just for the core, lack of replacement parts when it does pop, added weight, and the added costs of support for the 20B.

There were really only a couple of reasons I wanted to go with the 20B, one being the percieved increased reliablity of 600hp spread over 3 rotors, instead of over 2. Also, the increase in torque between same peak-hp engines: ie 600hp 2 rotor torque lower than 600hp 3 rotor. The increase in torque, and a broader power band are attractive, even with the same peak hp being the same between the two engines.

Coincidently, I happen to have a 13B-RE core sitting in the garage, and a couple of rotors that have been milled and clearanced already. Going with the 13B-RE was my original idea, and it still could be since I'd like to have the car running sometime in my lifetime. I'm going to sleep on the idea for a couple more nights and weigh the pro's (less cost, less time to complete build, less complex support), and the con's (less torque, peakier powerband, possibly less reliability).

*******************

Sk8world - Thank you for reminding me about E98. I've been out of the loop for a couple of years, and I only vaguely remember hearing about E98. It seems like a better option than Q16, and for only $3 a gal, it seems like that is what I will go with. I also like the clutchless tranny option, but I will try and stick it out with the Mazda tranny.

Trots*88TII-AE* - Thank you for the pics, they def have put a fire underneth me. Now that I've gotten rid of the 2 Synapse 40mm wastegates (original idea was completely divided manifold for 13B-RE). The GT4202 I have is a split turbine housing so I wanted to go with a completely divided manifold. With the 20B, this is a moot point, but if I go with the 13B-RE, I might consider the two smaller wastegates again, with a split manifold.

As for the A2W intercooler, I had previously researched Frozen Boost on some of the Chevy LS forums, and a couple of guys use them in the 1100hp range, I was still weary. If I finally go with the Frozen Boost IC, I do not plan on running a heat exchanger. I dont mind adding ice before every run.

With the clutch, yes I'm in line for the sintered iron disc. I had the idea to run the stock flywheel (FD I think)....does the sintered iron disc not work with the stock flywheels?

Thanks for the info on the main loop also. Your cage is on par with what I want to do.

Also, the front end of my TII is completely stripped. I want to keep the stock front bumber and still lose the weight, so I've decided for the headlights to not pop up at all. No motors, wires, other brackets. I'm not so good at making power, so I try and cut weight where ever I can.

Thanks again to everyone that responded...it is much appreciated.

Hopefully I will post some photos soon so you guys can see what I have to work with.

RE: the flywheel, I was more referring to going with a dual/triple disk 7.25" setup. You can get sintered iron disks made for the stock flywheel as a direct replacement, I remember seeing someone do that on the forum here, from ACT maybe?

About 2-rotor vs 3-rotor, my take is that you only need the added torque of the 3-rotor if you enjoy the extra drivability on the street, are using it for road racing, or any other form of driving that you might not constantly be in the peak power range. With the right transmission and gearing, the extra torque to achieve the same horsepower in lower RPM is not really relevant/needed. If you are sticking with the Mazda box permanently, the only argument I can think of is that since you aren't clutchless, the 3-rotor will help spool-up between shifts, and you can keep it in a transmission-friendlier RPM range while still making the same power.

There's nothing wrong with running the RE first to try it out though, the housings & rotors will transfer over to the 20B block if necessary, and you can always sell off the excess parts to fund the 20B engine. How much extra will it really cost you out of pocket to go 13BRE first, then try the 20B out later on if you aren't satisfied?

A couple things about A2W: It will weight a fair amount more, and if you are running meth, it isn't necessary, and may not even be beneficial. Some SAE articles I was reading on Methanol as fuel were suggesting that it may be less volatile with air charges that aren't too cold. Air to air would be lighter. I'm going to be switching to either Meth or E98 when I get back around to my car, and kind of wish I had an air to air cooler now.

I would suggest to decide if this is going to see the streets or not first.

If not you will be smart to run Meth, it will run cooler, make more power get to skip the ic, etc...

Clutchless can be had for 5k and it will shave at least .5 off your 1/4 et's.

To be truely honest, I would like to run the car at the track 90% of the time. Def do the Houston IFO events, and maybe do the TX and LA events.

The other 10% will be on the street, (puts on flame suit), to settle a couple of old scores. If I went to car meets, like 2K12, the car will be trailered to the hotel, then rolled off to play with the big kids.

do you have any good setup for a clutchless tranny? :) thinking about it for my FD

Well I've had a lot of time to think about it, and with the ultimate priority to have fun with the car, there isn't any fun waiting around for the money for a 20B. Maybe in the future when my budget allows, I will get the 20B.

I have the 13B-RE in my hands already, and I have a pair of FD rotors that are already 3mm machined and clearanced. I'm going to put my initial focus on getting the motor put together.

The other topics that have been floating around in my head are:

***Fuel - E98? Or straight Methanol? Remember that I already have the A1000 fuel pump and I've been told it might be too small for running Meth at the power level I desire (600hp) .

***EMS - Go back with PFC and stock harness? Or go with Haltech and new harness anyway. I have neither and one will need to be bought anyway. I'm wondering how much of the other wires in the car I can get rid of if I just run the absolute essentials.

The A1000 won't be big enough for methanol, probably not for E98 either. The cost of two good pumps goes a long way toward the ultimate solution of a mechanical pump.

Haltech and an LMS built harness. ;)

Would a ron mechanical fuel pump would be to much?

A small update:

I've delivered the 13B-RE to my builder and it will be underway as soon as some parts come in. I've decided to go back with the RX-8 E-Shaft. My rotors are already milled and clearenced. Def large street porting on both exhaust and intake. Also, planning on stock FD flywheel. Should have the engine in my hands in a couple of months.

As for the car itself, the first thing I will do after getting the work area cleaned is installing the Energy Suspension Bushing kit.

Heres a photo of the car at its last track outing. Still going with the same primer paint scheme, maybe a satin finish over it.

Alright!!
Some things have been decided on and I am making forward progress on this project finally.


*EMS - Talked with my tuner and some forum members (thank you), and Haltech Platinum Sport 1000 is the ticket.

*Intercooler - No intercooler, going alcohol.

*Exhaust manifold (might get it custom built) - Still no word on this. I like the reputation A-Spec has, but I still might build my own. Def split design for dual wastegates.

*Tires (MT full slick most likely) - Still nothing concrete.

*Cage design (nhra min, or more) - Might as well spend the money for the chromoly...design still up in the air.

*Radiator and other neccesary cooling components. (Seen some guys run Honda radiator off to one side) - Haven't put too much thought to it. I like the radiator setup Beefcake had on his rig.

*Clutch - ACT MAXX Xtreme with sintered iron disk made for stock FD flywheel.

*Fuel Pump - Weldon mechanical.

*Pulleys (not like they matter too much, but I enjoyed the Gilmers I used to have) - Still nothing concrete.

*Battery - Odyssey PC680

*Wastegates - Might as well spend the money and go with dual wastegates on a split manifold. Dual Tial 40mm's sound like enough?

*Fuel - Alcohol (Meth)

*Electric water pump - ??? I have no idea yet, but I'm working on talking to some guys that run electric water pumps.

I'm ripping out all of the Mazda wiring for the entire car and will be running completely new harness's for tail lights, blinkers, side markers, headlights, etc. I plan on building a panel with toggle switches for the lights, water pump, cooling fan, and a momentary push button for ignition.

I'm excited now...it's actually going to get put back together!! Thank you guys for your input, it is very much appreciated and invaluable.

I would rethink about the ACT clutch?, I'm using that same setup and it sucks!... I'm going with either a Spec Clutch or a Clutch Masters clutch and flywheel... Everything else looks good though..

Extreme plate and sintered disk from them is great! Are you using that disk or the 6 puck?
It has proven to go 9.2s already!

How far ar you from tearbo2? I would buddy up with him and let him help you on your goals. Keep it simple. If you havent bought a ecu go with the haltech as it will take you further then a basic PFC. I would also say you are on the right track with the Weldon pump.

Pretty close to Lee, and he is usually down in Houston for some of the IFO events.
Your exactly correct, while the PFC was a great plug and play unit, my tuner agrees that the Haltech will be the better option.
As for the Weldon Pump...there are 3 mechanical options...the 4+, 6+, and 12+, with respective meth hp ratings of 1100, 1800, 3000. Silly question, but shall I assume the 4+ at 1100hp should be adequate? Thats part number 34704.

This one:
// WELDON RACING PUMPS // 2400 HP Mechanical Fuel Pump -- Weldon Racing Pumps

Thanks again.

<Scrolls phone for Lee's cell number> lol

Aahhh I'm using the six puck and its no buenos!..lol is it a much big improvement?..

But yeah the haltech is the way to go my brother!...

Night and day difference. I used to go thru 2 disk a season on the 6 pucks now I am running the iron disk and went the complete season and it's still perfect. The 6 puck material is great for street driving but it can't take the high rpm launches. It burns and chips apart.

I would not got 20b for a drag car. Especially now that the 20b is hard to get parts for. I would do a 2 rotor setup.

<Scrolls phone for Lee's cell number> lol


:lol::lol::lol: 210-663-25** :blush:

Haha...I have it. But I didnt want to bug over the holiday weekend.

Ok guys, I think I've decided on the fuel pump/filter/bypass setup.

***Weldon 34706 6.8gpm@4k rpms mechanical pump.
// WELDON RACING PUMPS // 2800 HP Mechanical Fuel Pump -- Weldon Racing Pumps

***Weldon A2047-438-T-120 Bypass
// WELDON RACING PUMPS // High Flow Bypass Fuel Regulator -- Weldon Racing Pumps


***Weldon 100 Micron filter WEQ12100SSN
***Weldon 10 Micron filter WEQ1010CLN
// WELDON RACING PUMPS // Fuel Filters -- Weldon Racing Pumps

What do you guys think? Solid setup? Overkill? Not enough?