Plasma, cement, ceramic coatings, 787B
 

Saw a link to this Canadian company offering the same coatings on housings, plates and rotors as used by the 787B LeMans car. I obviously don't have an opinion or experience one way or the other. Just thought I'd throw it out there. I may have some plates and rotors coated for a new engine I'm building.

http://www.jhbperformance.com/

I should be getting my set of TII housings from these guys in the next week or so.
looking forward to seeing how they turned out.
matt

Why is there such a price difference between 13B to 13BREW housings? It should be same about of material use to coat the housings.

FD owners have more money :D

Plasma, cement, ceramic coatings, 787B
 

cement!!!!!!!!! You mean Cermet not cement! :D

I guess so, I can understand if it was the cost of buying the housing, but if you notice the core charges, then to me it looks like they are just charging more to do a new housing.

haha, I saw "cement" and thought...block fill!
Yeah, it's either CerMet or CeraMet. :)


-Ted

itlooks like they are rebadging/reselling some of Rotory Aviation's Products. I am sure the oil metering pump adapter is RA's and probably the apex seals.

Is this coating applied to the wear surfaces of the rotor and side housings?

Yes, it can be apparently. Rotors, housings, plates whatever you'd like in CERMET. Sorry building a house so I'm preoccupied with building materials! :rlaugh: Wonder if this would create clearance issues if all three were coated? The plates are ground down flat before coating, coated, and then lapped by them. Sent them an e-mail for a bit more info. The CerA is the same stuff used on the 787B and has really good longevity. The cheaper B stuff holds oil better but isn't as long-lasting.

The difference in price is because they have different core charges.

*edit*

Nevermind.. that goes out the window when you look at the Cermet A pricing.

I did a little math and if you coat everything and use the "B" coating on the housings, you're looking at about $2,400 without core charges on used parts. Much more if you purchase new. Ouch! I'm going to mull it over a bit but I may just bite and have everything done. It'd seem detrimental to do the housings/plates and not the rotors. Almost asking for trouble.

RA doesnt make the oil pump adapters, they just advertise them on their site. as for the seals, i think they are made by jhb, but i could be wrong.

i do want to hear from someone who does this, tho.

pat

I have been in contact with them recently and he told me that they aren't making apex seals temporaraly because of the huge demand for housings.

One thing I forgot to ask them was whether there's any danger in just coating "some" of the internal parts and not others...are you transferring too much heat to the uncoated parts that way?

What's the best combination (assuming you cannot afford all of them)? Housings and rotors? Rotors and end plates? Housings and end plates (I'd think not on the last one)?

If you're local rocket, might be a good question to ask if the call isn't long distance for you.
Michel

You can coat any combination of parts, the housings give the biggest gains. The endplates also give good performance gains as well as durability. The rotors can be used alone or with any combination of coatings.

Marc Couture
JHB Performance Engineering

Marc,
I appreciate you coming on here and sharing info! So there are no heat retention issues if I were to go with coated housings and plates? I wouldn't heat the engine oil excessively?

One more question while I hopefully have your attention; Can a damaged rotor housing be repaired with the cermet coating? What are the acceptable limits for refurbishing the housings in terms of gouges, etc? Is the surface milled down and then built up using the Cermet? Is there a discount if the entire engine is done???? :) Moving on to a 20B project and it'll be quite expensive to have all the parts coated.

I have a couple of questions. Why is there difference in prices between various 13B housings? Nothing that your coating as really changed. I can see the 12As because of the less material being coated between 12A and 13B.

Also if I have a housing coated, and break a apex seal, can you just repair and recoat the damaged areas for price savings?

Thanks

From what I understand about the ceramic, that Scalliwag is using, you should be able to coat damaged or gouged housings to a certain point. The housing is first milled down, the ceramic sprayed on the milled back down to factory spec. Obviously this means there is only so deep of a gouge that can be repaired. Also with a damaged ceramic housing you should be able to repair the specified area only at a reduced cost, one of the main benefits to getting the coated in the first place. Again this is only from what Scalli has told me, but I'm fairly certain that it is going to be the same for the cermet coating as well.

The difference in pricing for the various housings may be related to the equipment and specs that they have to get the coating down to. I know that the equipment that Scalli created is a big secret and for obvious reasons. I have my ideas on how he did this, but will not share because A. they could be completely flawed and wrong B. I could be so off that I look like a complete dumbass and C. because if I am close or have another method that works, it could be something that could possibly hinder his share of the market. This part, as far as my IDEAS on pricing, should be considered with skepticsm because I am very uncertain about it.

- Steiner

The engines that we have tested so far have run cooler and made more power. You should not ahve any issues with heat retention.

We do offer a discout on engine packages depending on your order.

We are in the process of revising our pricing structure (these prices were intended as introductory only). We find that some of our core charges are too high and others are far too low. The pricing is based on the amount of coating and work that has to be done to a typical used housing (strange enough, not all 13B housings go through the same process' and certain modles require more or less material to be added). The chrome mazda used changed many times over the years and the wear patterns are also different from these housings.

We can repair housings that have had localised apex seal failure and only on Cermet A housings, we cannot do this on Cermet B houings. Best to send us pictures of the failure areas first.

In addition, we can offer discounted repairs of Cermet A housings should an apex seal fail.

Hope this helps!
Marc Couture
JHB Performance Engineering

hey marc,

Do you have any data as to what the BSFC of a 13B with a full cermet coating is?
Just wondering if youve improved the thermodynamic efficiency enough for us to compete with the boingers in fuel efficency...

pat

Our coating packages lower SFC by over 16% on a stock motor based on our testing

Marc Couture

Do you have any side by side data of a identical setup engines one with specific individual parts coated and one with all engine internals coated VS stock engine turboed or N/A?

EGT, afr, RPM, injector duty, oil temp, water temp, ambient temperature, and any engine dyno numbers particularly torque, are readings that would seem to be the obvious things that would be big indicators of the reality of your claims of benefits.

Not that I doubt them, I would just like to see quantifiable evidence that this coating performs as you claim. Any torque numbers would be great also, as I have heard rumors of substantial amounts of torque that can be extracted by decreasing the surface coefficients with the use of ceramics with a rotary.

How many hours have you had on a coated engine under simulated load?

Any references to people that are/have used you products?

Are we talking coolant or block temps?
Or EGT's?
If it's EGT's, cooler doesn't make any sense.


-Ted

Not that I want to answer for him but logically he means lower oil and coolant temps, and higher egts as a result of less energy being able to conduct through the surface coatings. Moving in the direction of a adiabatic process. The blocks temperature will naturally move in the direction of the water temps.

That’s why I am so interested in some real numbers, I think in theory there are only benefits to be had from such a process, but to quantify the actual benefits seems like a very important factor when considering the cost of the coatings.

How thick of a coating is adhered to the various surfaces?
And are there any problems with your processes adhering properties, do any of the surfaces carry a warranty particularly the rotors, as I am sure coatings on those must be kept at a minimum thickness.

Just a thought....The amount of performance or protection you get from this amount of money I would argue is not worth the loss possibilities.The concept was to protect at a sustained level for a long period of abuse but for a NA motor with super cooling concepts and re-engineered motor parts.
But to apply to a stock cast motor and oiling system then to put the amount of dynamic variables of turbocharging with temp xtremes of daily hotrodding it seems there are more things that can break our motors before a lack of protection from a chem coating. Lean out, over boost or spike, blown waste gate,oil seals from boost, housing O rings........save the grand for a rebuild.One slipped corner seal can screw up some expensive coatings.