Need advice on a fuel set up
 

whats a good fuel setup for 700HP I'm thinking 1680cc x's 4 and dual pumps and upgraded fuel pumps. might be enough, but from those with more experience building high HP 13B's I will default to your wisdom. This would be for a street driven Bridgeport engine. Oh, also would I need to do any drivetrain upgrades. I know the the stock transmission is reasonable strong, and swaps are done at certian powerlevels. What they are is beyond me, but I'm sure you all will know. Thanks for the help.

Edit: I just realised I did this for E85. I'll do one for gas next.

For 700 hp you will need 70 lb/min of air. This is 386 lb/hr of fuel.

Re: Injectors
4 x 1600cc can deliver 386 lb/hr of fuel (just barely). You will be at 85% duty cycle at 9000 rpm, 25 psi boost. You will hit 701 hp (depending on the quality your bridgeport).

Re: Pumps
At 25 psi boost, we will need 70 psi line pressure.

Fuel weighs between 5.8 lbs and 6.5 lbs per gallon. Dividing 386 by 5.8, we get 66 gph. Dividing by 6.5, we get 59 gph. We will take the worst case scenario: We want 66 gph. Add a safety margin of 10%, and we want a pump rated for 72 gph at 70 psi line pressure.

Supra MKIV pump (Denso 195130-1020) flows 59 gph at 70 psi line pressure, 14V. 41 gph at 70 psi line pressure, 12V. You will need to run 2 pumps at 12V to achieve more than 72 gph.

Alternatively, you can run two FD3S pumps (Denso 195130-0782). Each flows 43 gph at 70 psi line pressure, 13.5V. Running two FD pumps at 13.5V will give you plenty.

Edit: Oh fuck, I calculated for E15. Lol.

Everything I've said above applies to gas except:

To make 700 hp,
Gas - 386 lb/hr
E15 - 415 lb/hr
E85 - 654 lb/hr!!!!!!!!

Explanation of line pressure: Line pressure = Base fuel pressure (45 psi) + Boost pressure (25 psi) = 70 psi.

Duty Cycle for Gas:
rrpm Primary Secondary
1000.00 6.25 0.00
1500.00 11.21 0.00
2000.00 17.60 0.00
2500.00 25.61 0.00
3000.00 35.48 0.00
3500.00 23.73 23.73
4000.00 30.10 30.10
4500.00 37.26 37.26
5000.00 45.31 45.31
5500.00 56.57 56.57
6000.00 59.77 59.77
6500.00 63.98 63.98
7000.00 67.44 67.44
7500.00 70.68 70.68
8000.00 73.72 73.72
8500.00 76.55 76.55
9000.00 79.17 79.17
9500.00 81.57 81.57


Duty Cycle For E15:
rpm Primary Secondary
1000.00 6.74 0.00
1500.00 12.08 0.00
2000.00 18.97 0.00
2500.00 27.62 0.00
3000.00 38.25 0.00
3500.00 25.58 25.58
4000.00 32.46 32.46
4500.00 40.18 40.18
5000.00 48.85 48.85
5500.00 60.99 60.99
6000.00 64.45 64.45
6500.00 68.99 68.99
7000.00 72.71 72.71
7500.00 76.21 76.21
8000.00 79.49 79.49
8500.00 82.54 82.54
9000.00 85.36 85.36
9500.00 87.96 87.96


Duty Cycle for E85:
rpm Pri Sec
1000 10.62 0.00
1500 19.03 0.00
2000 29.88 0.00
2500 43.49 0.00
3000 60.25 0.00
3500 40.29 40.29
4000 51.12 51.12
4500 63.28 63.28
5000 76.94 76.94
5500 96.06 96.06
6000 101.51 101.51
6500 108.65 108.65
7000 114.52 114.52
7500 120.03 120.03
8000 125.19 125.19
8500 129.99 129.99
9000 134.44 134.44
9500 138.53 138.53

At the flywheel or to the road?

I prefer to overbuild because one day I may need to take things that far. I learned that the hard way with a mustang I used to own

I would prefer road, but with a fuel system built for that much horsepower I'm sure I would destroy my drive train if I ever pushed things that far. and those numbers bring up all kinds of other problems like transmission swaps. ect ect. But mostly I will drive on the street with the occassional dyno pull and I plan to keep things around 500Hp daily driving.

If you over-build your fuel system then you will have a bad idle and less than optimal fuel injector resolution due to large primary fuel injectors, and you will need to install a fuel pump voltage controller to keep from burning up your fuel pump(s) and to keep from over-circulating the fuel and heating it up. If you need that much power, then it means that you are racing professionally, in which case the $3,000 or so to upgrade your fuel system is going to be one of your lesser expenses.

Come to think of it, the car will drive horribly on the street with that engine anyway. Are you sure you want a bridgeported street car?

Yup.

OK, I get it now. You will drive mostly on the street around 500hp with a bad idle, grabby clutch, horrible gas mileage, and expensive fuel system upgrades that you don't really need, but every now and then you will break expensive parts of your drivetrain on the dyno. That makes much more sense than driving on the street with a 500hp street-ported engine that will last three times longer.

I already have the bridgeported engine assembled. so I'm pretty much stuck on that. and I figured that since it's already bridgeported I should see what I can make of it, and why not? wouldn't you?

I knew before I built it about the crappy gas mileage and the idle. As far as my daily driving goes. I work 10 minutes from my house, the Grocery store is 5 minutes, and on the off chance I do have to go into the city the interstate is reasonably close as well.

3000 bucks for dual pumps and a voltage regulator???? seems kind of high, it's not like I want an intank sump.

I know that the drive train won't withstand the shock of a constant 700 HP. But I'm sure that 500 is possible, and actually somewhat reasonable given the alternative.

I like grabby clutches. it's not like I'll be in traffic with it anyway, and I wouldn't have to have some Exedy multi plate clutch either that costs 2000 dollars I'm sure a 6 puck will do just nicely, and even if I do have to get a 4 puck they aren't THAT bad.

Anyway, I'm not being an asshole. your entitled to your opinion. Thanks for the input.

No, that would be for a competition-level setup like mine. A ghetto setup like you suggested would be much cheaper, especially if you build it for 500bhp as opposed to 825bhp.

Everybody has their own idea of what is streetable. I just wanted to make sure you understood what you were getting yourself into because you seem confused.

Anyway, using a 15% fudge factor, 700hp at the wheels = about 825hp at the flywheel. How you are going to manage that on a 13B-powered street car is beyond me, but good luck with it. With super unleaded pump gas you are looking at about 6760 cc/min worth of fuel required, so you can divide that out however you like between your fuel injectors and fuel pump(s). Fuel lines to support 825bhp should be 1/2" hard line and -10 AN for single feed, 3/8" hard line and -8 AN for dual feed, and -6 AN for the return.

So best to just build the fuel system for 500BHP in your opinion?
I'm using a T04Z 1.15a/r 3in DP until I can get a custom 4in made. Greddy Power Extreme exhaust. and all the usual mods to support my build. I'll be the first to admit that Fuel systems are not my strong point when it comes to working on cars. That's why I figured it would just be best for me to ask around on the forum.

So do you think I should get for example an aeromotive pump? I was looking at the Bosh pumps, I really would prefer an in tank setup.

I recommend reading:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech103.html

As I mentioned above, for 700 hp, 2 FD pumps will do. These are cheap and numerous on the forum.

For 500 hp, you will only need 280 lb/hr of fuel, that's 48 gph of gasoline. One supra pump will do.

It is best to decide what you want to do with the car, and build it to that level. It sounds like you just want a nice street car and don't want to spend $30-50K fixing it up right now, so in that case I would recommend shooting for about 500bhp because that is a good target for minimal modifications. If you really want to build it up to the 800+ bhp level, then you will need to build the whole car to support that power level or you will break things the second that you exceed the limits of the substandard components. I guess what I am trying to convey is that the car will only produce as much power as allowed by the weakest link, so in my opinion it is a waste of time and money to build 90% of the car to support 800bhp if 10% of the car parts limits it to 500bhp.

Have you considered this?: First upgrade the fuel pump and secondary fuel injectors and shoot for about 500bhp or so. Then later on you can upgrade the cooling system, transmission, differential, etc., then add another fuel pump and upgrade the fuel lines and primary fuel injectors to support 700-800bhp. I'm not that familiar with the T04Z, but from what little I know it sounds like it would work fine at both power levels. Maybe somebody else could chime in on this?

It sounds like you would be happier with an in-tank setup.

Like everything else, you never stop learning. I'm upgrading the fuel system in my 88 coupe right now (650bhp SCCA SPO race setup), and it seems like there is always some type of unplanned hitch, lol. Fortunately, I live near Essex Industries, and they are very helpful. :)

A BSFC of 0.56 is rather optimistic. I think 0.62 to 0.70 is more realistic for the typical turbocharged 13B running on pump gas and tuned by a novice.

for pumps i recommend twin 044s and thicker fuel lines. in terms of fuel pumps u ll be coverred.. (The cj motorsports defenately is the way to go for a tidy setup)

As for the injectors, since you ll be using the car on the street, go for 2x660s for primaries) and 4x1600s for secondaries ...total 6injectors

I think six injectors would be a bit much for me. I want to destroy any car short of an Enzo at the drag strip and crush corvettes and such on the highway. not destroy the world.

Aviator, I have alot of respect for SCCA. If I ever get out of this state and move someplace when I can do something other than drag race. I definately want to get into autocross, and road racing.

I hate to say it, but the above fuel injector setup is pretty much what you would need to support your original goal of 700rwhp if running rich like most of the high-boost engines on this forum. My car has 6 fuel injectors and well over $3,000 worth of fuel system parts, and my engine will not make more than 550rwhp without choking on its own turbo. I think maybe you don't quite comprehend the enormity of 700rwhp. ;)

My friend's SPO 3Gen RX-7 only dynoed 442hp, and he smoked every car at Daytona except the zillion-dollar Chevy-sponsored Corvettes and Saleen-sponsored Mustangs.
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/single-turbo-fd-race-car-4sale-105671/

SCCA events in your state:
http://www.scsportscar.com/modules/news/

You can get a free membership to Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development if you send them SCCA autocross results from 2 events. It doesn't even matter how well you do.
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/

I m not familiar with what kind of cars go to the events you want to participate but hitting high numbers is not always the case to win a race. I know someone with a 1000hp supra and lost against a 480 hp celica gt-4.

its not the amount of power you can produce, its how you put it on the street.
if you really want to win some races start getting rid of extra weight.

Please post your full set up including type of porting. I'd like to know how it is you're not able to break 550 hp with 6 injectors.

The T66 turbo is the limiting factor. Well, that and the porting.

Setup here:
https://www.rx7club.com/vbgarage.php?do=view&id=340