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Using Howard Coleman’s “no dyno, no problem “ I have some interesting results.
first, the set up: SA chassis, 6 port with a fresh rebuild. Streetport from pineapple template. S4 NA intake, custom turbo manifold with BNRs latest S5 offering. 3” exhaust including a GESI catalytic. ID1050X, Haltech…. The aux ports remain functional and are set to open under boost, 60% throttle and I believe a minimum coolant temperature. I built this all myself and have been taking what I have learned over the years and applying to this little project. I also have been data logging, but have been limited to how hard I have been driving. Based on new system and engine, a suspension and alignment that want to randomly change lanes at high way speeds and local speed limits. So most of my data is in the mid rpm band and partial throttle.
I grabbed one example under modest boost. 5.3psi. 50% duty cycle on primary injectors 53% on secondary injectors. Yes, this is odd, but I set max duty on the primary low as I wasn’t sure the secondary were working. 11.1 AFR. My first calculation came up with 280hp at 5600rpm which was more than I expected at 5psi.
I thought why not get an off boost number under throttle.
Remember that the aux ports are closed under vacuum. I looked for a 0psi but before boost to get a sample under load. So I found this data point:
13.9AFR, 47% duty cycle, 5400rpm ,37% tps which for my calculations came out to 147hp. Partial throttle. No aux ports.
I’m just amazed by these numbers. If they are even accurate. Some more info, I don’t have e85 here, but there is a 10% ethanol. Which was factored in.
I’m just shocked by these numbers. Considering the timid driving conditions.
i am jealous of your setup having owned the same blue 83 GSL. jealous that you weigh well over 500 pounds less than my FD. loved the car.
i noticed you may be running the same turbo oil inlet flange. i recently fired my new engine/turbo setup and developed a bit of a burning oil smell which i traced to the flange. it had a very nice O ring which would have worked great at a max temp of 200 F.
here's how it fared at the usual 350+
after examining my options i JB Welded the groove, found some FelPro hi temp gaskekt material and think it is a fix
Thank You, I'll double check that inlet. Also thank you for the kind words on my build. Honestly I don't know what it can do at this point. Im not entirely happy with how close the exhaust was it the intake, so I'm doing some changes. I need to get the suspension done before I pitch too hard into it. Oddly enough I have been maxing out at 5 psi averaging 4.5 in my data logs. I have a 7psi waste gate. Then again to I have not really opened it up either. fresh engine and such. plus I run out of speed limit too fast. Honestly I'm looking forward to a dyno day. I don't have one local to me though. I'm really curious about the torque curve more than anything else at this point.
so then VE, we have to educated guess that one, my calculator gets to 140% ve with injector duty and size that matches, hp is 284, so good job. i'm going to say my number is flywheel hp.
the other variable is the turbo and IC efficiency and pressure drop, but its kind of a refinement
I posted this to the Facebook page. There is a lot of disbelief. One pointed out the 280hp at 5600 rpm. Which was considered to be a low rpm number for the HP estimate. Considering my attempt was a strong mid power band. I wonder if I accomplished this. One day ill get to a dyno. until then, speculation.
I posted this to the Facebook page. There is a lot of disbelief. One pointed out the 280hp at 5600 rpm. Which was considered to be a low rpm number for the HP estimate. Considering my attempt was a strong mid power band. I wonder if I accomplished this. One day ill get to a dyno. until then, speculation.
it does seem high, and it might be that when you get more data it changes.
however, the numbers pencil out, both in the old online calculator, and in the one i made to figure out where you are on the turbine map.
my estimate puts you at 32lbs min, and 1.56pr corrected for the compressor, and on the turbine side its 1.8pr and 32lbs min, 290hp. the compressor side is probably pretty close, the turbo side is just a wild guess. it needs pre and post turbine pressures, and pre turbo egt (post turbo EGT would get you an efficiency number, but we generally don't care about that)
it was the highest dyno result I can recall in that application, but it may have been a Stage 4 and there can be other factors involved that may yield better or worse results. I seem to recall that some didn’t do much better at quite a bit more boost.
that’s really something the FC experts are better at defining than me. My focus is more towards the REW.
if anything the turbine flow value as stated in the post above is actually intended as total exhaust port flow. A turbine housing that can can swallow 32 lb/min post-WG is capable of much higher output. If it was that oversized the lag would be quite noticeable. I also seem to recall people stating the turbine was undersize relative to the Stage 3 compressor.
The EFR8374 1.05 AR IWG turbine chokes at a lower flow value and a few of those have exceeded 550 whp. It. goes back to another discussion I had recently about 34 lbs/min turbine flow relative to 600 rotary whp.
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I had just got the car running in august. Complete restoration. I took it out on the freeway once. discovered the problem. figured it was time to put the car away til next year. Although I did get a few in town trips, for the sake of data. I'm also looking at a steering upgrade to R&P. Yes, an alignment needs to be done.
What is your fuel pressure? Is it 43psi relative to manifold pressure like ID injectors are rated at or is it lower? GSL-SE rails run at 2.5 bar, I am unsure about FC. And it also assumes that the regulator isn't failing.
Are your injector constants correct for YOUR car? I have 1050Xs and the supplied injector constants are a ballpark but are not accurate, since the computer hardware and vehicle wiring are different than a test bench. Have been fighting a lean when hot condition which would be due to inaccurate deadtime causing a skew. The alternative is that the injectors themselves are extremely sensitive to temperature, which really should not be the case.
I’m running the ID1050X (x4), TI Automotive gss342. Turbosmart FPR. Set to 43.5 at idle. No vacuum line attached. Per instructions. 6AN lines. Fuel tank was serviced. So no debris to clog the system. The only thing left over from the fuel line is the rails. I did run new 12awg wire for the fuel pump as well.
not sure it matters, but I did “star grounding” per Haltech. All engine wiring in new. As is the battery cables. I tried to remove any failure points I could.
if you see something, I’m eager to read what you have to share.
looks like you filled and sealed up all the holes with Devcon
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what holes are you referring to? Any holes that were abandoned were tapped and set with a set screw. I used a dab of epoxy as added insurance that the screws held. I don’t recall applying epoxy or devicon to fill any open port without some form of mechanical blocking being done first.
I assume you connected the vacuum line back up after setting the pressure
Yes I did reconnect the vacuum line. I also blocked it during the setting of the base pressure. The FPR has a sensor that is sending a reading to the ECU.
As an aside, I really got a good laugh from your question, and a wave of depression knowing it was a question that had to be asked.
I'm a technician, they give me all of the problem children as well as all of the European and Diesel work, and the first rule is you never assume. Problems start when you think but not know. So no offense was intended
The more things you know are correct, the fewer things it might be, until you find the answer to your question.
Just today I had an interesting ABS fault on a Sprinter (combining Diesel and Euro, yay) that turned out to be a bad connection inside the fuse box, because Mercedes apparently uses the same amount of forethought with respect to wiring corrosion protection that my 1980s Volkswagens had... the fault looked like a bad ABS pump because the voltage dropped only a little bit and the pump wouldn't even try to move, but connecting up an amp clamp verified that the pump wasn't drawing any current at all...
In car widebands are better than they used to be, but still a bit all over the place for accuracy at anything but stoich. Noticed this hanging around dynos.
Biggest fails I saw were grounding issues (not even widebands fault).
If you do have an inaccurate wideband at least it would be reading lean in order to give you an optimistic power output (so safe at least).
I went with the Balinger and upgraded sensor (tested closer to accurate in sorting), but I dont assume its near instrument grade or run power calculations off its readings.
Once you get an alignment the acceleration figures vs weight will let you know where you are at while still avoiding the dyno if that is your preferrence.
when using Howard’s formulas, does the drive gear matter? A dyno is ran in 4th (1:1) so if I was in third, wouldn’t I need to divide the numbers by the third gear numbers? Perhaps that is why my numbers are so optimistic.
the highest i've seen from a stock FC turbo is 265rwhp. it was a street port T2, dyno is on here somewhere i think.
i think your car has a better exhaust manifold, and the 6 port manifold is better than the t2. i feel like the 6 port turbo has more potential as well, but TBD.
so its possible that you're right there.
since this thread started, i've done more testing on my car, and then i also went back to the book,
i've found on my car the stock turbo flows about 32lbs/min and it really is sort of a wall. at 5000rpm and 13psi, and 7000 at 7.7psi its flowing basically the same. the HP peak is somewhere between, its about 5600, ~274 flywheel
i think have hooked up pre turbo backpressure and the whole turbo is just out of flow, lol. pre turbo backpressure isn't awful, crossover is about 3,000, and then it peaks around 15psi at 5000rpm, and just stays there. so at 500rpm the delta is only about 2psi, which is ok. at 7000rpm its like 7psi which is a lot
i did just put a bigger compressor on it (V trim) and once i have it tuned in, we will see what it does. compressor should flow more, but what that will do to the boost curve and backpressure are the unknowns
j9fd3s, thank you for your insight. I'm really curious what the dyno will read once I get there. Although at this point I'm chasing power band. hp numbers have gotten insane over the years.
01-18-23, 01:00 AM
, i'm a plank
