weld-in cage "kit" for FC3S?
 

Hi guys!

I'm currently buildung up my fc3s TII for drifting/track day driving and i'm loocking around for a premade weld-in cage kit...

bolt in cages are no option for me... but i also dont have a tube bender / tube notcher... therefore i'm looking for precuted/prebended weld-in kits for the fc3s...

I've used google but didn't found anything which fits the fc... i found some cagekits for the SA and the FD :/

any input would be great!

Yes, I can help you, feel free to PM me.

Are you in Europe?

If so, shipping will be pricey from places here in the US.

Have you tried looking for a local race shop?

I build my roll bar with a drill press, hand grinder and 110volt welder.

as far as i'm aware the only piece that needs to made of one continuous tube is the main loop. so i called the local hot rod shop, that told me to make a card board cutout of the interior of the car. i took my tube and the cutout to their shop and they bend the tube so that it lays on the cutout 1inch from the edge, they left the ends long so i could adjust the height as i saw fit.

all the notching i did with the drill press and a hole saw.

Jegs Sells a complete pre-bent, notched 10pt cage for $250 and 12pt for $300 or so.

Link Here!

Shipping will be crazy to Austria!

ahhh thats not DOM, and is not what I would put into an FC. He needs to look into the rules of the organization he will be working with, then have a cage done up for him, or he can buy a bolt-in cage from Matter (Germany) or Autopower, Sparco, etc.

many organizations does allow bolt in cages.


It's much harder then it looks but if you have any talents with a welder it's can be done in your garage.

I think you meant 'does not allow" bolt-in cages. Thats true, but its worth looking into. Sine we have no rulebook or organization or even type of racing, we just kind of have to guess.
Actually Matter makes weld in cages as well, they just are not cheap.

We build cages here so we are very familiar with the need to fit the cage to the rules :)

Cages do not "necessarily" need to be DOM tubing. I use 120 wall ERW and it is perfectly acceptable and is spec'd by the racing sanctioning bodies for either type.

Not sure what the problem would be with a kit. Not everyone has the cash to flop on a custom one-off cage, when a simple pre-cut kit would do.

To help with the bantering....what type of racing do you wish to do?

If it's simple grass roots style, an ERW kit would work.

SCCA, NASA, and most other road racing organizations have banned the use of ERW tubing. The only places it is currently legal AFAIK is some drag racing classes and some lower-end circle track classes.

ERW would be OK i guess for a show car, but I would go DOM, its just not that much more money and you have the peace of mind. Also, my guess is few European organizations would allow ERW tubing.

My RR org. still allows ERW and has banned chromoly and aluminum for use of cage structures.

http://www.kirkracing.com/

^^ They offer a weld in kit for the FC

will the jegs kit work for scca events?

Depends on which events. For Club racing I do not believe so, although you should check the most recent GCR. My GCR shows DOM and 4130 "Alloy" tubing only. Pro Racing is DOM only now for Roll cage and crush structures, no 4130.
Not sure about legality for autocross or time trial events, but my guess is no.
There is a DOM version of the CE cage I believe but it reflects the difference in price.
To be clear, I have not even looked at a Jegs/CE kit in about 12 years, so I am going on memory and what the adverts lead me to believe, not recent experience.

Also, be careful buying tubing or hacing work done at the local circle track/nascar shop. Back in 98-ish a friend bought some tubing from the local circle track chassis shop and they actually told him it was DOM and legal for racing. Well it was ERW and was not legal, so we had a pile of that stuff in the corner of his garage for a pretty good while.

im just trying to find a cage, i was about to buy the cage from jegs and i figure i would ask if anyone knew off the top of there heads. any one have any other sources? in my area its a lot of circle track stuff, nothing really with the scca except for a few autocross and rally events.

I've looked into "DOM only" and I couldn't find anything solid on it for Club Racing. The only thing i found was "Pro" wants DOM to be the only materials used.

I have asked around and just started a new 1.5x0.120 ERW cage for one of my cars based on recommendations/advice from my clubs officials.

If you are looking for just a roll bar to compete in a solo event (which at my track is significantly less stringent) AFAIK, the jegs cage will suit.

Best bet is to ask at a local event in the type of racing you want to do. Most people, especially club/event organizers will be happy to let you know.

From the GCR, in the Roll cage section and applicable to ALL classes:

F. TUBING
1. Seamless or DOM mild steel tubing (SAE 1020 or 1025 recommended)
or alloy steel tubing (SAE 4130) must be used for all
roll cage structures. Alloy and mild steel tubing may not be
mixed. ERW tubing is not allowed.

Cheers,
Don

From NASA CCR-

15.6.1 Purpose
The basic purpose of the roll cage is to protect the occupant in case of a rollover or a
collision. It should be able to withstand the weight of the car landing on the roof. These
rules apply to all classes, unless otherwise superseded by the class rules. Vehicles
homologated by, or built to the specifications of, FIA Group N, FIA Group C, JAF, SCCA,
IMSA, and Grand AM must conform to these rules, or may conform to their respective
current class rules for roll cage requirements for guest groups and special events. Any
vehicle that does not conform to the NASA cage rules, yet conforms to cage rules of
another recognized sanctioning body (SCCA, IMSA, Grand Am, etc.), that wishes
compete in NASA events on a regular basis, should be ordered to make modifications
within a time frame specified by the Race Director and approved by the Regional
Director. Note- It is the responsibility of the driver to furnish a copy of any non-NASA
rules applicable to his/her vehicle.
15.6.2 Intent
Chassis stiffening is a side benefit of a good roll cage system, but it is not the intent of these rules. Parts of the cage deemed by the Chief Scrutineer, to serve no practical purpose other than chassis stiffening may be considered in violation of the intent of these rules (Note: Some class rules allow for chassis stiffening.). The Chief Scrutineer may order the removal of said parts, or require that the vehicle owner redesign, reconstruct, and re-certify the roll cage if warranted. The removal or redesign of the cage, whole or in part, to comply with these rules, does not imply that penalties will not be issued for violating the intent of these rules.

15.6.3 Installation
The cage may be removable or may be permanently welded, or any combination
thereof, providing that all aspects of the cage meet these rules.

15.6.4 Padding
All roll cage surfaces that may come in contact with the driver should be padded with
high-density padding such as Ethafoam or Ensolite. It is recommended that padding
meeting SFI specification 45.1 be used.

15.6.5 Bends
None of the tubing may show any signs of crimping or wall failure. All bends must be
Mandrel type. The center radius of the bends may not be less than three (3) times the
outside diameter of the roll cage tubing.

15.6.6 Main Hoop
The main roll cage hoop should be as wide as the full width of the interior and must be
as close to the roof as possible without violating CCR section #15.6.20 Inspection. One
continuous length of roll bar tubing shall be used as the main hoop. The main hoop
must consist of not more than four (4) bends maximum, totaling one hundred eighty
(180) degrees +/- ten (10) degrees.
1
5.6.7 Diagonal Brace
One (1) diagonal brace shall be used in the same plane as the main hoop. The diagonal
should be one continuous path; meaning that it must conform to Diagrams 15.6.7a or

15.6.7b. Note- If the installation method from Diagram 15.6.7b is used, the builder
should pay close attention to alignment. One end of the diagonal brace shall attach to
60
the corner, or horizontal part, of the main hoop above the driver’s head, within twelve
(12) inches of the driver’s-side corner. The other end of the diagonal brace shall attach
to the mounting plate (or to the main hoop as close to the mounting plate as practically
possible) diagonally opposed to the driver’s head (passenger floor).

15.6.8 Forward Hoops (Option 1)
The forward hoops shall extend from the main hoop (in a forward direction) to the floor
by following the roof and the “A” pillar of the car. There shall be a bar connecting the
two (2) forward hoops at the top of the windshield mounted as close to the roof as
possible without violating CCR Section #15.6.20 Inspection. The forward hoops shall
incorporate no more than four bends each. Optionally a “15.6.9 Halo Hoop (Option 2)”
or “15.6.10 Front Hoop (Option 3)” construction may also be acceptable.

15.6.9 Halo Hoop (Option 2)
A “halo bar” extends from the main hoop (in a forward direction) following the roof line to
the windshield then following along the top of the windshield, then following the roof line
back to the main hoop, thus creating a “halo” over the driver’s head. A “halo” bar shall
be constructed of one (1) continuous piece of tubing. One (1) down tube following the
“A” pillar must support the “halo” on each side of the car. The down tubes shall
incorporate no more than two (2) bends each.

15.6.10 Front Hoop (Option 3)
A “front hoop” is a bar that extends up from the floor, then follows the “A” pillar up to the
roof, then follows the roof line across the top of the windshield, then back down the other
“A” pillar, and then terminates on the floor. There must be one (1) horizontal bar
(following the roof line) connecting the main hoop and the forward hoop on each side of
the car. The front hoop shall incorporate no more than four (4) bends.

15.6.11 Rear Braces
The main hoop must have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be
attached as near as possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6)
inches below the top. The braces must not contain any bends*. There must be at
least 30 degrees between the plane of the main hoop and the plane of the rear braces.
The main hoop rear braces shall be installed to form no more than a one hundred five
(105) degree angle or no less than a seventy-five (75) degree angle with the main hoop
when viewed from the top. The main hoop braces may be mounted at the rear shock
mounts or suspension pickup points (providing that the braces remain in compliance with
all other sections of the CCR). They may go through any rear bulkhead(s) provided the
bulkhead(s) is sealed around the cage braces. *There may be certain exceptions
allowed for cars that cannot possible meet this “no bend” requirement. One exception is
listed [Ref:(15.6.11.A)]. Other exceptions may be made (not guaranteed) if all of the
required bars meet the specifications for a vehicle in the next heavier weight
classification and the alternative design is submitted to the NASA National Office for
special allowance.

15.6.11.A Rear Braces - Exceptions
On cars where the rear window/bulkhead prohibits the installation of rear braces
(Porsche 914, Pontiac Fiero, etc.) the main hoop must be attached to the body by plates
welded to the cage and bolted to the stock shoulder harness mounting location. There
must also be a diagonal bar connecting the top of the main hoop to the lower front
passenger side mounting point (“Petty bar”). Some cars built for racing in other
recognized sanctioning bodies may be granted a waiver of this rule, however they must
show proof of compliance with the current published rules for their class.
61

15.6.12 Door Bars / Side Impact Protection
At least one (1) door bar on driver side and one (1) on the passenger side must be used.
At least two (2) door bars on the driver side and one (1) door bar on the passenger side
must be installed in all vehicles that obtain a new logbook after January 1st, 2007.
All vehicles, regardless of date of manufacture or date of logbook issuance will be
required to have at least two (2) door bars on the driver side and one (1) door bar on the
passenger side starting January 1st, 2011.
Unless superseded by class rules, modifications to any non-chassis structure (such as
door panels, inner door sheet metal, windows, door internals, etc.) may be made to
accommodate any allowed door bar configuration. However, removal of material and /
or modifications is limited to 1) the least amount to accommodate the door bar(s), and 2)
can serve no other function. Holes in the door jam (B-pillar) may be permitted to
accommodate door bars; however the structure should not be “notched” so as to weaken
it.

15.6.13 Mounting Points
The roll cage shall be mounted to the floor area of the car in six, seven, or eight points.
The cage shall not go through the firewall. The seventh and eighth points must attach to
the firewall or front fender wells. All cage attachment points must be mounted to plates
or a mounting box (plinth). Each required cage bar shall terminate on a plate with a 360
degree weld to the mounting plate, except as specified in Section 15.6.14.B. There shall
be only one (1) mounting “point” per plate. This point is defined as where the “required
tube” mounts. All additional tubes mounted to that plate must be mounted as close to
the required tube as possible [Ref: (15.6.14.B)]. It is recommended that plinth boxes use
a bottom support plate in cases where the edges of the box may punch through the
sheet metal.

15.6.14 Mounting Plates
Each mounting plate shall be no greater than one hundred (100) square inches and no
greater than twelve (12) inches or less than two (2) inches on a side. Welded mounting
plates shall be at least 0.080-inch thick. Plates may extend onto vertical sections of the
structure. Any mounting plate may be multi-angled, but shall not exceed one hundred
(100) square inches total including vertical sections. Each mounting plate should have
an area of not less than nine (9) square inches.

15.6.14.A Mounting Plates – Bolt-In Cage
The attaching points of a bolt-in cage to the body must use reinforcing plates to
sandwich the body. At least three (3) bolts are required for each bolt-in plate and the
plate must be at least 3/16 inch thick. All hardware must be SAE Grade 5 or better with
5/16” diameter minimum. All nuts must be held securely by a locking system such as
safety wire, lock washer, Nylox, or jam-nuts.

15.6.14.B Tube / Mounting Plate Specifications
Any number of tubes may attach to a plate so long as they are touching each other at
the plate. There may be a small gap between tubes to allow welding 360 degrees
around each tube. If there is no gap between the tubes, they must be welded around
the base as much as possible to form a single figure-eight weld, AND the tubes must be
welded to each other two (2) inches up from the base plate.

15.6.15 Welds
All welding must be of the highest quality with full penetration and shall conform to the
American Welding Society D1.1, 1994 Edition, Structural Welding Code, Chapter10,62Tubular Structures and Standards for the material used. Arc welding should be used whenever possible. It is strongly recommended that the welder inspect all welds using
Magnaflux™, x-ray, or other effective methods. All tubes must be welded 360-degrees
around the circumference of the tube.

15.6.16 Tube Structure Design / Body
Tubes may touch the body in any place (not to violate CCR section #15.6.20 Inspection),
but shall not be attached anywhere except as permitted by CCR Section

#15.6.11.A
Rear Braces - Exceptions. No deformation of the interior body panels is permitted,
except that the horizontal part of the sheet metal (next to the driver’s and/or passenger’s
head) between the top of the “B” pillar and the top of the “A” pillar, may be pushed in to
accommodate the roll cage. The intent of this allowed deformation is strictly to allow for
more headroom for the driver and/or passenger.

15.6.17 Additional Reinforcement
Any number of additional reinforcing bars are permitted within the structure of the cage
provided that they are installed strictly for safety and do not violate CCR Section

#15.6.2
Intent. This rule does not permit reinforcements in classes with spec cages.
All required bars must be made of the same material and meet with at least the minimum
specifications for size and thickness.

15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but
without fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing
thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is:
Up to 1500 lbs.
1.375” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1501 - 2500 lbs.
1.500” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.500” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages 04/30/03)
*Note- Specifications listed for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.
2501 - 3000 lbs.
1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages 04/30/03)
*Note- Specifications listed for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.
3001 - 4000 lbs.
1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
No ERW allowed.
Over 4000 lbs.
2.000” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
No ERW allowed.
15.6.19 Bending Allowances
If the maximum number of bends permitted for any one bar is exceeded, all required
components shall be made from the tubing size listed for the next heavier category and
must be approved by a NASA race tech shop or scrutineer.
63
15.6.20 Inspection
A 3/16-inch inspection hole must be drilled in each of the required bars in a non-critical
area for the purpose of determining wall thickness. All welds, except those mounted to
plates on the floor, must be accessible for inspection (360 degrees).
15.6.21

So, If I read this correctly, ERW is allowed but you won't have a log book. So, vehicles can still run in solo classes where log books aren't required.

As of 4/30/03 ERW cages will not be issued a logbook. So you can race with one in NASA IF it had an approved ERW cage and logbook prior to that date

Ahh no thats not quite right-

No, ERW is specifically not allowed in classes where wheel to wheel racing or for some time trial events where a cage is required.

No car is allowed to race (or even practice) without a logbook.

For solo racing where no cage is required, an ERW cage could be used. For solo classes where a cage is required -maybe Pro Solo or Solo 1? not sure, not autocrossed in a while.

You could do some trackdays with an ERW cage, but should you want to actually race, the car would not pass tech.

You can still use erw in scca level 2 time trials but a agree with above if you have any interest to do any real racing go with a dom cage and be done with it.

Beware there is some crappy china man DOM around so not all dom is better than erw and interesting article herehttp://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=60158.0

Level 2? What is SCCA level 2? AFAIK if a cage is required, it cannot be ERW period.

EDIT- BS on the link you posted, it is posted and conducted by a manufacturer berating a competitors product.

Sorry thats not correct in level 2 time trials it is legal. Why are you so hostile? Right from the rule book

11.2.2. MATERIAL
After 9-22-85, aluminum is not an acceptable alternate material. Cars using aluminum roll bars or roll cages must file proof

with the Club Racing Department that the structure was approved prior to 9-22-85 as provided in this section.
A.
The roll bar hoop and all braces must be of seamless, ERW, or DOM mild steel tubing (SAE 1010, 1020, 1025) or equivalent, or alloy steel tubing (SAE 4130). It is strongly recommended that roll bars not be constructed of ERW due to quality and strength concerns.
A.
The size of tubing to be used shall be determined on the basis of the weight of the car. The following minimum sizes are required and are based upon the weight of the car without the driver.
Over 1500 lbs. 1.50 x .120 or 1.75 x .095
Over 1000 lbs. 1.25 x .090
Under 1000 lbs. 1.00 x .060

And as far as that link being bs , thats fine. If you think cheap chinese dom has the same quality as usa dom you might be dead wrong. Google china steel vs usa steel and you'll get tons of info.

I dont need to google it, I have used some of it (we had some in here a year or so ago a customer had brought in) and you cannot tell one from the other. That test was done specifically so that manufacturer could rep thier product. In fact I have used probably a ton of "Chinese" stainless steel and it welds better than some of the "USA" SS we have had in. The worst we have had was some stuff made somewhere in Canada, which welded like crap no mater how you tried it. The only issue we have seen is that some of the "Chinese" tubing supplied by specific vendors is not standard wall thickness.
Personally, I buy tubing from two companies locally, and I know whatever they give me, no mater where it is made, is the right stuff. I dont care whether the plant that made it is in Siberia as long as the wall thickness is right and it is DOM of the correct alloy. I know the tubing is randomly inspected to ensure that it is what it is marked it is.
Now, in the world of off-road bumpers these companies are always bickering about who makes what out of what and I could give a flying fuck less. They are all trying to sell you something and will tell you why thiers is the best and why everyone else sucks. Dont believe everything you read on the internet, especially from someone trying to rep thier own products or a product they happen to own.
A couple of things you should probably be aware of:

You WANT the cage to deform. Its why SCCA Pro Racing no longer allows 4130 cromoly tubing to be used for the crash structure. It is so strong it breaks or transmits impact, which is bad for the driver. MILD steel DOM tubing deforms in a predictable fashion and absorbs the impact. ERW tubing does not deform in a predictable fashion and is not acceptable. I know some people say it might split the seam, but I cannot say I have seen that happen. I have seen it break, which is bad.

Time trials is not wheel to wheel and therefore the only reason ERW is allowed. IF you build a cage of ERW and then try and go wheel to wheel then you will have the pleasure of cutting it out and doing it over.

Personally, I do not give a flying fuck what tubing you use to build your cage out of. Why anyone would cheap out and use ERW, I have no clue, DOM is not THAT much more, and hey, all it does is try and keep you alive in the vent you do something else stupid. I personally will not use anything but DOM, and I will never recommend an ERW cage.