Stoptech vs. Brembo BBK?
 

I would appreciate some input from fellow track freeks about which Brake kit will hold up the best. My car is a track car only. I have the 99 spec rear brake set-up and ordered the stoptech BBK (race version). Problem is; the kits are back ordered from the manufacturer and has caused me to take another look at the Brembo kit. The Brembo kit is $1,000 more than the stoptech +/-. But Fritz has told me that the Brembo set-up was the best and smoothest he has ever run. My brake system upgrade has been thought out after a lot of reading on the forum:

a) 929 master cylinder
b) 99 spec (RZ) rear brake rotors/brackets
c) Stoptech or Brembo BBK (front)
d) keeping ABS intact ( flat spotted too many expensive R-compound tires)
e) Hawk DTC 70 front/ DTC 60 rear (pads)

Just want a set-up as reliable as possible and the least expensive in the long run. I logged a bunch of track time as instructor this season and plan on ton of track time next season. Needing more confidence in the "WO" so I can work on more "GO".

Dave:nod:

Dave, if you are done tracking for the year, wait for the stoptech's. I don't think there is a $1000 difference in the two. It'll only take an hour or so to put on once you have them. Also, the rotor backing plate/dust shield for the RS/RZ front brakes is a perfect fit for the stoptech kit(prob. the brembo as well). If you go that route, you can always go ahead and install them while waiting on the brakes. Another route is getting a backing plate with a flange for a hose so you can do brake ducts.

You also may want to get speed bleeders for them as I'm sure you know... makes track prep just a touch easier. I *think* the part number for the stoptech's 1010S.

Everything else looks good man! Hope to make it to VIR in the late spring/early summer and run into all the usual suspects!

Vir
 

Hey Brent...Thanks for chiming in. Yeh; hard to justify an extra $1,000 with little difference in the set-ups. I now have a pressure bleeder and catch bottle so I can bleed everything by myself. Are the front and rear backing plates available @ Mazda Motorsports? I did order the rear rotors from them. Still have my stock brake set-up on my car until I collect all the needed parts. Only thing missing is the fronts and backing plates/dust shields. Look forward to seeing you @ VIR. I could seriously use some coaching to help my lap times. Fritz did a ride-along with me and vise versa. Holy shit! I have some seroius cathing up to do. If you guys can get me under 2:10's this next season...Beer and Pizza @ Millie's on me! :icon_tup:

Dave,

My set up is similar to yours:
929 Master Cylinder
99 spec rear rotor
Wilwood 4 pot dynalite calipers rear
Brembo GT calipers front
I've used both Brembo and Stoptech rotors on the Brembo hat
proportioning valve
ABS delete
Hawk DTC 70s front and rear
titanium backing plates on front calipers

I get about 12-15 sessions on the front pads and twice that on the rears. The front rotors (Stoptech) lasted the entire season (13 races) and the rear rotors have gone 22 races so far.

As for the Brembo versus Stoptech question I'm not sure what to tell you. My setup just flat out works, no fade, no screwing around, the brakes are always there.

Guy

Pete and I are now considering the Endless kit for the same reasons the Brembo kit is better than the stop tech kit and of course the Endless kit cost about 80% more than the Brembo kit cost but brakes are not the place to save money :)

Possibly if the 4 of us go with Endless kits we can get a group discount. However I need a user friendly kit which both the stoptech and Brembo kit are so we are waiting on answers from the Endless camp.

Why spend 5k plus on the endless kit because you'll spend 1k less per year on replacing pads and rotors (I expect they'll last twice as long if the #s I've seen are accurate), a hell of lot less time worrying about brakes (the number one spot I like to decrease worries) and of course time is money too and although swapping pads isn't bad messing with rotors is a major PIA.

Yup. StopTech is a really nice kit, especially for the money, but the bottom line is, I have a fully ducted setup, and put new rotors on for WGI last hear, and have 7 days on them now and they're getting there (maybe a weekend left, possibly two). And, I get about 4-5 days out of a set of PFC pads before they are a little thicker than the backing plate, and if I go past that, it starts to trash the caliper seals from heat—and rebuilds aren't cheap. I don't suspect any of that would be any better with any of the existing kits, so you might as well do the StopTech because it looks nice and the price is right.

A $5-6k kit sounds ridiculous, but if it REALLY didn't trash rotors and calipers, and the pads were thicker and lasted longer (and weren't too much more expensive) it actually might work out over time... plus the "confidence" and less hassle factor.

Btw
 

Brent, watched your vid @ VIR with NASA Octoberfast. Nice work! Fritz is a fast MOFO for sure. Congrats on winning the time trial. Nice write-up in Grassroots Motorsports as well. See you @ the track.

Dave

Thanks Guy! I'm thinking DTC 60's for the rear just to help keep brake balance even since I'm keeping ABS (not as much experience as many responding to my post...lol). Appreciate your input!

Wow! I know you've put the research in Fritz! Don't know if can go that much, but let me know what you come up with from Endless. Maybe I can sell the stock seats from my base model to get me closer...? Thanks again for the pointers on track! I definitely have work to do!:nod:

Thanks for the input Peter. Nice lap times @ VIR bud! I guess its' Stoptech until you and Fritz come up with that Group Buy with Endless. BTW; did you get your exhaust sorted out?

Dave

Right backing plate - F138-33-261A
Left backing plate F138-33-271A

about $30 a piece.

Thanks for the kind words! The VIR TT video was from 2010. Wish I could of made that event this year. I ended up with a 2:05 later on in the weekend of the UTCC after adjusting my gears and shift points on some older tires and in the triple digit July heat(I always have all kinds of excuses). I wish I could of been around for the October NASA event on some fresh tires. Maybe next year.

I've had the same set of stoptech rotors on my car since I first put it on the track in March 2010. I suspect they'll last another year. Pads have lasted around 20 days or so for the front.

For the 99spec Rears, I just replaced the rotors... prior to that, I had the same set since 2008. The pads last around 20-25 days.

DTC 70/60 is a good combo. If you feel you have too much front bias, you can try 60/60(because they don't make the 70 for the rear unfortunately).

Thanks Brent...

Ran out of edit time from leaving work to getting back to my hootch.

I'll be happy to help any way I can with your driver progression. Alot of my time drops have come from a well set up car though, not the driver. What little driver skill I do have comes from Fritz(the man who taught us all to drive and drive fast at VIR) is the jedi master, I'm just the mere padawan.

I'm not really interested in the endless set up. Too rich for my blood. I also don't think the cost is going to be justified for the return. I could be wrong, but I don't see them having a pad that is also made by hawk or PFC(I could def. be wrong on that). The stoptech/99's don't give me any brake issues and I think they're plenty economical enough for me(99 rear rotors did increase by $70 each since the last time I purchased them 3 years ago though :D). I plan to duct the StopTech's when I get the time to, but hasn't been an issue thus far. We finally cracked the code on the manual, dual master cylinder set up mid year and my brakes stop just as fast as anything on track I've compared data too. Now it's just a matter or erasing muscle memory from the last year of having crappy brakes and start braking deeper and deeper.

Oh yeah, the 2:05 at VIR was also with literally no brake pad left and two severely cracked rotors. Confidence was not high. I did a kamikaze lap(maybe two) and came in. Alex in his GT3 ran a 2:03 though and Danny Popp ran a 1:58 or something silly fast.

As mentioned to you before super lap time in July :icon_tup:

I suspect the DTCs last a lot longer than the 01s so I may have to give those a try. Great rotor life as well so clearly ducting isn't necessary.

Yep the 99 rears on these cars running moderate power last a long LONG time.

Maybe I'll try the DT70 fronts—I tried the PFC 06's this time, and not sure they really wore better than 01's, and perhaps had not quite as much bite.

Thanks for the props but it's easy when you have a quick study who's willing to really put the work in and the balls of steel help as well :D

Can't wait to see what's in store next year and hopefully you can make a trip back to the EAST some time or maybe "Almost Racing" can get together at Barber :icon_tup:

I have stoptechs on one of my cars, no track time on them yet but had an issue with one of the calipers from a past owner and stoptech's customer service was top notch they went above and beyond the call to help us.

I'll be back to VIR next year at some point, come hell or high water.... chasing low 2's and trying to keep you in sight as always. Hopefully we can do a little planning and get you and Pete down to Road Atlanta next year as well. It's worth the drive.

Sounds like a plan on RA

At the rate you and that car are coming along you'll be the rabbit and I'll be the tortoise :)

Happy V day and keep your powder dry :icon_tup:

ptrhahn, Fritz Flynn,

If your main concern is the rotor and pad life, why dont you guys purchase the endless rotors and their pads for your existing setups?

Do you want the endless caliper because it allows you to run a thicker pad material for more brake pad life?



John

Pad thickness is really important to reduce heat to allow for long rotor and caliper life however the thicker the pad the more weight and knock back so there's always give and take but I'd much rather tap up the peddle and carry some extra weight than deal with replacing high dollar overheated pads.

Thick rotor (ideally floating) to deal with the heat but again give and take it's HEAVY

Caliper stiffness to deal with the huge space and offset from the spindle/upright that the thicker pad and rotor will need which is the same reason we can't just run a thick pad and thick rotor because it won't fit a caliper opening that's too narrow. If the caliper isn't stiff enough you'll get lots of tapering which means flipping pads to deal with the unequal wear, unequal pad temps from unequal wear causing rotor damage etc...etc....

I understand the endless setup is around 5500 and I'm guessing stoptech could come up with a killer brake setup for the FD for much less. Once I use up the rotors on my stop tech kit and my Brembo GT kit I'll probably make a call to Stop Tech and see what they can come up with and possibly we can do a group buy :icon_tup:

I've heard good things about Endless pads but so far for my money PFC is hard to beat. I'll give the DTC 60s a try once I wear out my PFC 01s but I'm guessing I'll be buying O1s again after the 60s.

PS From what I can tell Stop Tech is the up and coming brake company because of their excellent product/value and customer service.

PSS Regarding pads Grassroots motorsports did a pad test with James Clay at the wheel (He's an 11 10nths driver if there ever was one) and he said the DTC 60 was great but Hawke gave him a 60 front and 70 rear because most cars are front biased but most race cars are setup to run the same pad so that put the Hawke pad setup at a disadvantage and I think he gave the 01s the win. So with that said the 60s may be the ticket and they are less expensive so I'm excited to give them a try and also based on Brents info they last too which tells me they are NASTY or eat rotors which isn't bad because I've never replaced a rotor from being too thin it's always due to heat cracks. HAWKE as always has been a great value I love the blues which are easily the best pads for the money and I have used those in the rear for a long time.

If I may, if your looking at spending this sort of money, go with the Performance Friction caliper/rotor setup. The price point will not be much different even than the Brembo setup and these are serious calipers meant for track duty.

I personally refuse to use Stoptech brakes period, and I have told Dino and his techs that. In the RX8 World Challenge cars I run the STOCK brakes with Cobalt Friction pads and there is nothing on the track that can outbrake my car, lap after lap. Even Meyers car with the Stoptechs could not outbrake us, although it was not a fair comparison as they were using Hawk 60's and not the Cobalts.
Let me repeat- on the Touring Car RX8;s which run 1:36's at Mid-Ohio with Dan Clarke driving, used the Cobalt XR1 front/XR3rear pads, stock calipers and discs with good ducting and we have zero issues with fade.

Fritz,
It would be nice if Stoptech made a rear setup (even just 2-piece rotors). I thought it ironic that they make a "Race Version" front BBK to be used specifically for the 99 spec rear brakes; but don't make the larger rear 2-piece rotors or caliper adapter brackets like Racing Brake. I would be interested in a total kit from Stoptech instead of a "piece-meal" set-up.

D Walker,
Really appreciate your input from the racing world. I did search the web for Cobalt pads and couldn't find anything for the FD. Let me know if I missed something? I'm not sure if our 93' brake calipers equate to 2003+/- Rx8 calipers. If they are similar; it would be awesome if we could get great track performance out of STOCK calipers/rotors with the simple addition of Cobalt pads and adequite ducting. Cheers!

I don't think we FD folks have much luck running the stock brakes for very long—as with the RX8, a lot has happened in terms of the quality of brakes cars come with today, so I'm not surprised that in some cases the "upgrades" are no longer an upgrade. Some Nissan GTR guys have told me the same.

A bit of insight I'd LOVE, would be where to start in terms of PFC calipers. They make quite a few, so it's tough to pour through their catalog and know where to start... you'd likely need to be able to order with specific piston sizes in order to match it with the 929 MC, and whatever you're doing at the rear. You'd need to be able to be very specific about what you want.

Having run StopTech's for years (tracking and street, not racing), I've got my own sense of their pluses and minuses... would appreciate your insights on minuses (PM me if you, understandably, aren't comfortable dishing on a public forum). I'm at a point where the function of my system is pretty good, it's just a matter of how quickly you go through "consumables".

I spec'd up a custom ST rear kit last winter using their new mini 4-piston rear calipers. The issue I ran into was wheel clearance for the wider rotors and calipers, (which forced the mini 4-piston because it's narrower than the 2-piston), and then piston sizes. In order to "match" even the "race" front kit, you needed REALLY small pistons to not screw up the bias, since ST has gone fairly small up front to match the OE MC. I'm very particular about having a super firm brake pedal, and wasn't willing to screw that up. I'm running the 929MC with the ST kit sized for the OE MC, and with the RB rear upgrade kit, and I LOVE the feel.

The other issue of course would the deletion of the e-brake. Having just loaded my car on a wooden-plank trailer in a snow storm, I don't know what I would have done without the e-brake.