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Specs NASA Super Unlimited Widebody FC
what do ya think? Here's a quick overview;
NASA Super Unlimited Race car in progress, Lots of Aero, and soon to be ~500 rwhp. 335 Kumho road race tires to make it stick. This car started life as midnight racer, making~530 hp, and sporting the stock bronze color, and no wing, the car was quite the sleeper. When I purchased it, the owner had switched the car to a .60/.81 P trim TO4S. The turbo gives instantaneous boost, spinning 235-40-17 R compound tires all the way through first an second gears. That's nice for autocross, but I plan to rad race this car in the NASA Super unlimited class. With that in mind we will be switching to a T66 .81 Q trim in the quest for ~500rwhp with good response. If that comes up short we will use a Garrett GT40R Ball bearing 67mm turbo in a .94ar. The tire wheel combo has been my biggest dilema, I want to run 335s out back and 315s up front, but the only two R compounds available are the Kumho Ecsta 700(known for chunking out), and the Hoosiers(expensive, and don't last)My saving grace may be the viper club, as they run Michelin Pilot slicks in these sizes. I am working on getting a connection for scrubs, so my budget survives the tire costs. The Body is a mix of a Tripoint flare kit, a Rotary Extreme GTC nose, a custom reverse cowl hood(copied from the 3rd gen Mazdaspeed piece), and a BIG wing. I'd like to run the RE wing, but at ~1200.00 I will have to find something else. I may also create a functional roof scoop utilizing the stock TII hood scoop(we shall see). Anyway the goal is a road racing beast able to hang with just about any thing out there(in the amatuer ranks) I will keep the updates coming, as I finish them. Later for now Carl Byck 707-696-2705 Battery / Charging / Wiring Body custom Aluminum Splitter, and undertray large dual plane aluminum wing Rotary Extreme GTC nose Tripoint wide body Brakes Carbotech XP pads Motul 600 power slot rotors stainless braided lines Cooling 90% water, 10% glycol, redline Water Wetter Custom AST dual electric fans Dual oil coolers in series Huge custom Griffin radiator Drivetrain ECU haltech E6K Electronics AVCR, E6K, TE WBO2, Engine 88 plates 95 rotors, and housings w/ large street port every oil, and cooling mod Exhaust Custom 3-1/2" DP RB turbo back Fuel -6 AN Braided lines 750primaries, 1600 secondaries Huge Bosch Pump SX RRFPR Gauges every one! Ignition 10mm wires NGK Race plugs Three MSD 6A Intake Blitz Interior none Suspension 550lb front / 300lb rear springs camber plates Ground Control coilovers Toe eliminator Tires / Wheels CCW 17x10 Front, 17x12 Rear Kumho 275-40-17 front Kumho 335-35-17 Rear Turbo TO4S, soon T66 Weight Reduction Gutted |
pics
I cannot get the pics up on this forum, so go to this thread
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/showth...threadid=20028 |
you need bigger brakes! if it was me, i'd splurge on this part. any of the big kits will do the trick, but you're gonna need something other than slotted stock size rotors and fancy pads to be competive in SU. 500 hp and lots of downforce are totally irrelevant when your brakes go after half a lap.
good luck, looks good otherwise. fabian |
Looks like a very good start for a SU car. The Porsches and stock cars are front runners in SU but you should do well if it doesn't overheat or something fail.
That front end has some HUGE brake ducts. Nice! What transmission, differential, and axels can take that much power? Slicks come in many sizes might be an alternative to finding DOT-R's. If longevity is a concern buy hard compound slicks. Keep us updated! |
I know Fabian, the list is long;) DFor now stock tranny, and shimmed stock diff(with cooler), Chrome moly axles coming. The front ducts may end up going to the two oil coolers I have in front of the radiator right now, otherwise, they will be for the brakes(may split them internally to both). Still need a BIG wing, still looking. I am in SU to have fun, it is the only class where I can build whatever i want, and race wheel to wheel. Carl
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Yeah .... All that aero and power will be useless when someone divebombs you in a fully loaded 94 FD Touring...;)
Like Foko says....Got Brakes? |
The AP racing kits out there are probably your best bet for a serious racing setup- The Wilwood setups out there generally use calipers with alot more flex than AP/Alcon/Brembo units.
You might want to look into adapting a set of 'Big Reds' (Mono block Brembo built Porche 911 Turbo) calipers. I can't wait to see some pics of the TriPoint kit painted. |
Got APs?
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Speaking of widebody kits, what are the different options that we have? What is the max wheel/tire size they will allow and cost of each option?
Mariah's e-prod fenders Corksport flares Tripoint's flares Anything else that I'm missing? -Matt Looking for some more rubber for next years OTC |
Others include AWR, and Japco, both of those are race only. Feed, BNR, and RE also make kits. I will be able to fit 335s on the back, and probably 315s on the front. Carl
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Originally posted by Carl Byck Still need a BIG wing, still looking. I am in SU to have fun, it is the only class where I can build whatever i want, and race wheel to wheel. Carl fabian |
Originally posted by DriveFast7 Looks like a very good start for a SU car. The Porsches and stock cars are front runners in SU but you should do well if it doesn't overheat or something fail. That front end has some HUGE brake ducts. Nice! What transmission, differential, and axels can take that much power? Slicks come in many sizes might be an alternative to finding DOT-R's. If longevity is a concern buy hard compound slicks. Keep us updated! Fabian :p: HeHe LOL....It's so easy to make recomendations when it's not my wallet;) |
Thanks, but for 1400.00 I'd buy the RE wing wind tunnel designed for the FC. So what size slicks would approximate the tire sizes above, and what compound(s) by brand will approximate the wear I get with V700s?
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Sounds good Carl. When are you planning on having it done? Here is my 2 cents.
Body: seam welded lexan glass fglass doors Cooiling: evans @ 0 pressure Brakes: bigger larger master cylinder (929?) stainless lines of course Suspension: needle bearing or at least delrin f/r control arm bushings aluminum/delrin subframe/diff bushings adjustable trailing arms (easy toe adjustments) plus theyt eliminate those ball joints adjustable sublinks (camber each rear wheel individually) plus they eliminate those crappr rubber bushings Tranny: dogrings baby (mmmmmm guru <---- soon to be making a dog ring conversion for the RX-8 6 speed which of course has the same bellhousing pattern as ours) triple plate clutch cooler Diff: kaaz or equvalent diff diff cooler Engine: dry sumped ported single turbo 3 rotor with some luck on my part, we will be trading paint out there in 2005 ;) |
There is a finished 2nd gen 20B widebody GT car for sale in one of the Racer mags, 35K, and it is awesome. Everything you can think of, done , and ready to race not to mention`30 tires and wheels, a couple of engines, etc. just buy that and be done. As for swapping paint, I hope to keep my paint to myself ;). What turbo set up are you going to use? I assume you will not settle for less than 600hp:D
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Remember that the splitter is a high attrition part, you're going to be busting that with off track excursions. May want to make that out of something easier to rebuild (say plywood)
Stay away from slotted rotors, they will crack, and will accelerate the wear of your brake pads (think cheese slicer) I agree that bigger brakes are going to be necessary, but I doubt anyone in a loaded street FD is going to outbrake a lightweight FC :) You're definitely going to need slicks if you want to beat cars like that monster 911 Turbo :) What Shocks and swaybars are you planning to choose? Sounds likea good plan, when are you going to be ready? PaulC |
What racer mag is that car in? Not that I'm interested, but wouldn't mind checking it out. I already have WAY to much into mine to justify giving up at this point. Turbo is still up in the air. GT42 maybe. Goal is 650 rwhp on pump gas @ only 14-16 psi. I checked out the pics on teamfc3s.org of your car and it looks great so far. Lotsa fresh air. Did you have to modify the front end to go over the front flares?
There was a guy from fc3s.org at sevenstock building a (not as) wide body fc with a 13bre cosmo for NASA super unlimited. I think he was SoCal though. Should also be a nice setup when all done. Should be a real fun class in the next few years.0 Maybe have fc's finnish 1-2-3 :D |
Thanks Paul. On the splitter, i expect to bend it, but then be able to lay it flat on cement, and pound it reasonably flat again.
On brakes, I have stock discs ready to install, at ~2400lbs I am not convinced I will need the bigger brakes(although every single racer I talked to IS sure). I will have TONs of ducting, so heat shuld not be an issue , we shall see. At my current power level I'd say the brakes are sufficient, at ~500rwhp, they will not be. Sway bars are 2 way adjustable fronts, and three way adjustable rears, don't know the brand, but I won't change them til I settle on coilovers. Currently I have Koni yellows, standard valving, with 500lb fr/300lb rr springs. I am looking at JIC/Advanced design/Revalving my konis to double adjustable. I will not make any suspension changes until I see how the car behaves with the new tire/wheel combo. Problem with slicks is they require a totally different suspension setup according to Tims, so for now I think I'll stick w/DOTs til I learn to drive. I still have alot of work to do, but the car S/B driveable(but not optimum) in ~60 days. The mechanicals are the same as the last time at ran at Sears w/you late last year. Big Turbo will be after suspension, so probably late spring for the 500hp bit. I have the turbo, but I don't want to ball this thing up before I even learn to drive it. Carl |
Carl,
The next gen Kumhos will have both sizes you want. Maybe they will be more durable. Kumho V710 info Get some brakes!!!!! |
Looks like we have a winner:D I will almost certainly run those, anybody know real availability?
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I emailed an inquiry on the V710, and the V70A(in a 315-35-17) to Kumho directly, we will see what they have to say. Carl
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V70A is the ECSTA V700 I'm pretty sure. People were calling it that here before the ECSTA came out.
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You are right, but the 315 is not a current offering(in the 70A, or the 710), so since there is no info from Kumho on V710 availability, I thought I'd ask that question as well.
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NICE job !!. I have SCCA ITE(kinda like NASA SU) RX7. just get it down this MAR ( after 2 years ). If u want to buy big SPOILER!! I recomand u to buy RE GT2 spoiler mabe be u need to got a wider one? the GT2 spoiler on my car is only 162 CM wide. I think RE made a wider one.
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Doesn't that spoiler cost ~1200.00?, Alittle out of my budget right now:(
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Originally posted by Silkworm but I doubt anyone in a loaded street FD is going to outbrake a lightweight FC :) PaulC Yes Paul FD lovers believe FDs are just that unbeatable on the track until they need to be towed in after the motor or turbo blows. :) |
SU
Quick note. Driving a 300+ HP car is much easier than 500+HP car on the track. Turbo 500HP is a handful to tame. On the road course how the power is laid down is more important than how much. Have fun with turbo lag while NA powered cars are pulling you. :)
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P.S. why not start out like Paul with a PS car first?
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Originally posted by Silkworm
but I doubt anyone in a loaded street FD is going to outbrake a lightweight FC If we are talking abt Carl's FC, I dont know if we can call it light yet...there is a HUGE list of modifications... Silkworms car is more track specific if you ask me, but I guess it's two different class of racing My opinion is that since there is so much work done, why not brakes? This is NOT a ligghtweight FC vs Piggie FD battle... :D |
c'mon now, fd's and fc's have the same friggin brakes. fd's just have a little more rubber which can be compensated for by the fc with weight/tires/pads or even just a better driver. blah
You only have enough power when you leave rubber from the exit of one turn to the turn in of the next. :D |
Cossie, and I will let you guys know on the brake question :D
As for Pauls car being more track specific, it's really just the difference between a spec class car, and an Unlimited Class car. As far as "Race prep" my car will have every track oriented piece, and mod imaginable(needed). This car still has a long way to go(as Cossie pointed out), with alot of experimentation with the aero yet to come(splitters, canards, wings, diffusers, and an alternate quick connect low drag nose all coming). As far as brakes go, at my current power level they are sufficient, at ~500rwhp, I will need more. However, a Big brake upgrade is not cheap, and I want to do it right, so for now it will be stockers, w/XP pads, and BIG ducts. I need to buy tires and wheels next, and those are going to run me over 3 grand, so brakes will have to wait. As far as handling a 500hp turbo car, I've track driven 700rwhp Supras a couple times, they are a handful, but not unmanageable. My daily driver has ~400rwhp, and will be well over 650 in a couple months. To reply to the NA challenge, my car pulled a 2003 ZO6(experienced driver) coming off the corners at T'hill without a problem(not to mention I pulled him on the front straight along with an 03 996 twin turbo), that was at ~300rwhp and full weight. At ~500rwhp and ~2500lbs, I dont see any NA cars being close(someone is always faster), let alone pulling me. Plus there is always Race Logic TC if I can't learn to drive it. In a nutshell I am building a fun fast car, and I am going to play, I know there are lots of faster drivers, and lots of faster cars, but I am in it for fun, nothing more. Please keep your thoughts coming on ways to make this car a more complete, and better track car, Regards, Carl |
Z06 is cool but I was talking about SU that might have NA 400-HP cars. I am sure you can pull in the straight away. I am talking about exiting corners and come out with good throttle control. Plus I just don't see how you can keep 500HP turbo motor together on the track and be reliable like Porsches. So what track time did the 700Hp Supra laid down?
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A-men Dave :)
No more ideas on having a better car, but let's get it out there! PaulC (Got Fenders? ugh) |
Originally posted by mazdized Yes Paul FD lovers believe FDs are just that unbeatable on the track until they need to be towed in after the motor or turbo blows. :) "Why did my turbo spit oil into my intake manifold??" Boy did they get pissed when my 1st gen 12a streetport dellorto carb and EP suspension and rollcage beat them. On 13" DotR's! I'd pull away on the turns and they'd try to catch up on the straights. Boy was that fun! These FD's I played with were usually very mildly modified. Exhaust and intake or intake and hoosier's you get the idea. |
sorry for injecting a useless opinion, but i made my best effort to photoshop that car and make it look good, but it is still FUGLY. but then again i like the stock look with real pretty engine work.
sorry, Justin |
I love all you haters, see you at the track :D
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dont get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the work gone into that car, i just think it is fugly.
Justin |
Lukily it is in my garage(not yours), and you won't have to look at it ;)
I know alot of guys don't care for it, but don't worry, I have the Tripoint nose as well, and it is being prepped, and matched to the flares at the same time, it will be painted at the same time, and when I eventually put the car in the wall, the car will get the nose it was born with :D Later, Carl |
Carl, what steering rack are you using?
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power rack from an 89 I believe. I may need to get a quick release wheel, as it is quite a squeeze getting in. I think I am going to use rubbermaid garbage cans for fender liners(classy huh;) ) Any cheaper choices than CCWs for wheels(1860) in a 17x12, and 17x11? I cannot believe the drag/downforce the undertray/splitter is generating, I can fell the nose dig in at 60mph + Need to find a bigger wing :D. My oil temps were 155-160, and water was 170, and Im not done with my cooling mods yet:) This sucka is a lot of work. I hope my Ghetto Aero works.......... I will need more power to push this beast for sure. Carl
BTW anyone familiar with the Simpson head restraint system(body harness that connects to helmet)? |
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Carl, car sounds like a lot of fun. I run 16x 12 x 22.5 Hoosiers on a first gen, sticks very well with little to no real aero. but then again only running about 180-190 hp, 2250 with driver and fuel. We run 3 piece Real racing wheels. light, good piece, and strong so far, three years. Got them from Hoosier Tom with Mid-Atlantic Motorsports, IIRC. He can help you out with the tires and wheels. We have had good luck with the hoosiers and tire treatment to keep them soft. All year so far, 10-12 Solo IIs, solo I's two drivers at all events, and plenty of stick and tire left.
As far as your wing, check with the DSR guys. D Sports Racer that is. http://dsr.racer.net The forum has lots of good technical discussions. In particular, there was thread about a week ago, in the car building section about wings. There is a guy on there that will build one to your specs, or you can pick on out of stock sizes. (stock being stock on cars like Stohr, Radicals, Merloy, etc.) He quoted one guy $800.00 carbon honeycomb contruction wing. He said fiberglass was about $400.00. Just a thought. Not as bling bling as an Autozone APC aluminum Shogun ballistic wing, but this one works.:biggrin: Travis |
Thanks Travis those are good leads. The rael racing wheels in my sizes are 500+/wheel :(. As for tires, I am nervous about 16s because of limited tire choices, in fact even the 17s are limiting me(18s seem to be what the pro teams are using, and therfore are the best deals sincet they seem to give away tires for pennies on the dollar). This is only because I hope to be able to use scrubs for awhile until I learn to drive(fast), and then go to "real race rubber" for races only.
Tyson The RS are right about the same as the CCWs price wise, and weight wise. I do like the 5 spoke look, I am looking around for someone with agood price on the Forgelines also(good call thanks). As an aside, I had a brainstorm this morning. I have been wanting to put a much bigger IC in the car(old style HKS right now), but was concerned about flow to the radiator. I think I have solved the problem, since I have the two huge side ducts on the nose, and a sealed flat bottom all the way to the front cross member, I am thinking I will direct all the air(except for brake ducts) from the side ducts to behind the IC, and directly to the radiator, and the oil coolers. Basicly air comes in the main opening, through the IC>radiator>out reverse cowl hood. Side duct air>behind IC>radiator/oil coolers>out hood. Hard to explain, but I think it will work well :D. Anyone with more ideas, keep them coming, it really helps. Regards, Carl |
Travis, I searched that site thoroughly, and cannot find the wing vendor, I am very iterested, can you give me a little more direction? Thanks, Carl
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Maybe Real is the wrong name, I can't remember right now. I will find out tonight and get the name for you. I only say this because they were they were only 350-375 per wheel, IIRC. Good contruction, though a very slight touch wobble laterally. Causes no vibraton, but if you put a mic on the outside bead you can meaure a touch of wobble.
I totally forgot about takeoffs for the tires. that is true. Though I would imagine that mounting them would necessitate some modifications to accomodate, though this is probably to be expected. We had to notch the frame in front and weld the walls back in to rebox the fram to gain the clearance for the tire to clear. But I have to say, large wheel and tire combos do look tough on these cars, no matter the generation. ( proper race wheel/tire look, not 22" 60lb chrome uglies with rubber bands on some blinged out third gen.) There is us and a TII running really fat tires. We are running 16 X 12's and get a lot of looks from people seeing the car from behind. IT IS a LOT of meat on the road. The TII has a beautiful widebody kit on it, and CCW's, black mesh with polished lip, 335/40/18 DOT's rear and 295/45/17 fts. IIRC Car looks sweet. Looks really nice. Travis |
Carl, here is the guy and his comment. His company is APK development.
Quote from Alex on DSR website: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello, I was asked to show a pricing list for composite wings and other parts as this is what individuals were expecting to see when visiting www.apk-developments.com However, a page describing this service has not been made yet. I would like to take a number of photos and put together the details before doing that. I qouted two individuals so far, one wants a carbon wing ($700) for a Stohr, and the other wants a carbon wing and wing uprights ($850) for their Radical. The wings qouted above will have an internal structure, with skins applied over it. The skins will have that deep gloss look showing the carbon weave. This type of wing can also be made from fiberglass for about $400 Foam core wings can also be done, and would typically cost $300 in fiberglass. $400 in carbon. These prices include S&H. Prices may vary with each situation, like multi-element wings... The specs/drawings needed are: -Airfoil (Name and chord length would be perfect, but an accurate trace is just as good) -Span -Wingtip drawing (Where the holes get located for the end plate bolts, also note the bolt thread size) -Gurney flap -Wing mount -End plate -Anything else that would be useful If you are interested, you may contact me at alex@apk-developments.com Thank you, Alex Hope this helps. Also, if you have some time, dig around the DSR website. There are a lot of everday engineers, as well as professional engineers and car and engine builders. Ben Beaseley(sp?) is a regular contributor and a big Rotary CSR guy. But there are also great topics on suspension, aero, tire stuff. Someone on there can answer any question you might have, from formulas for camber curves, roll centers, instant centers, front or rear aero, etc. If you are into the mechanical side of racing as well, as I am, this is a great way to waste some time. Travis |
Hey Carl, what type of intercooler set-up are you going to be running, FMIC I presume?
And since the hood area on the RX7 is a low pressure area, maybe you could put some brake vents on the tops of the fenders like many purpose built race-cars do. |
From What I understand the louvres on the fenders are primarily for creating downforce. This is how it works(from what I've read) The tire acts like a fan forcing air out of the lovres, creating a low pressure area, and thus down force. At the same time you are eliminating much of the lift that the spinning tires would otherwise be generating. These louvres also create a certain amount of drag. The amount of lift/drag, and downforce can be changed by the shape, placement, and open area of the louvres. The DSR site mentioned above goes into extreme detail on this, and other aero theories, I'm just spouting generalities, which I will use through trial and error to try to make a better car. I'm sure there are many engineers grimacing at my explanations, and many nay sayers wondering if this thing will ever see pavement, but as I said before, That's just fine with me, I'm just having fun :D Carl
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I just read you IC posts on the other fourm, have you though about mounting the IC and Rad differently, like a V-Mount or H-Mount or something?
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I do not think I will need to, as long as I provide enough venting through the hood, I think my design is better than any, except for the JGTC Toms Supra design,where the Radiator is the front of the box, and the IC is the top, with no hood above the IC, and the remainder of the box being Carbon fiber contoured to promote air flow. I dont have the room to do that, but I think mine will be awesome. As it is I have zero cooling issues.
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