Race engine builders
 

Hi All:
Who builds reliable race engines in the SF bay area?
Thanks,
Jim

For NA motors there is an scca racer name Jose Rodriquez (spelling) No shop, no ads. He races a GT2 rotary car.

For Turbo motors SR motor sports in Brentwood. Bring your checkbook. He's not cheap.

Good Luck.

Ship it up to Daryl Drummond (daryl@drummondengines.com, 541-761-5520) in Southern Oregon. Rebello used to also build rotaries, I think. And Mike Haag (www.haagperformance.com) used to work for Rebello and can build rotaries...

Pineapple also builds race engines, but not sure where he is on the "cutting edge" curve.

I think there is a distinct line between those that can assemble a roatary engine to race specs and those who build, develop, and then assemble a package for racing. Dan at Pineapple would be on my list of the latter and there are a few others. If you are loosking to freshen an engine, particulalry for ITor Spec, then pretty much any methodical, detail oriented individual "should" be able to assemble a solid engine for you. If you are setting out with a core and a rulebook, look deeper. The people with solid knowledge and a record of doing well will cost money, but its generally worth it in the long run.

Last advice on choosing a race engine builder- do not listen to internet BS or even trackside commentary. Its ALL slanted. Go visit the builder or speak to them over the phone. If this is going to be a longer term relationship, make sure that they fit your personality, style, and expectations.

Thanks for all the tips. I recently moved to SF from Seattle area and I'm looking for someone local. Of course it doesn't cost all that much to ship to my favorite shop in Seattle (JLC Racing) but it would be nice to be able to just drive over to a shop if there's a good one close by. It's a stock port N/A GSL-SE ITX engine. And, unfortunately it's not a freshening... it's in need some major parts.

Hi Jim,

I believe that Jose builds the motors that the Downeys run in their RX3 E-production car. That car finished third this year at the runoffs and second last year. I think Shpnout has Jose's phone number floating around somewhere.

Best,

Guy

Pineapple has yet to disappoint me...

that's hardly really a race build. just about any of the shops in the bay can build the engine, some will just want to use new parts while others will just want to replace it with a reman. the only thing that might set your engine apart in the term "race build" would be internal engine balancing or rotor lightening for higher revs, unless you plan on changing things up a bit and going with a PP, semi-pp build.

rick in pleasanton is super expensive and basically builds to OEM tolerances with basically new parts, rotorsport i believe only installs remans now, SR motorsports in brentwood is good but pricey as well from what i have heard but no complaints. there is also PR motorsports in hayward but i have been hearing a few horror stories lately about their shop.

if it's just a basic rebuild i head through the bay periodically but my shop is located in Las Vegas now so pickups and deliveries aren't very timely.

I have to say this...
 

I believe Rick in Pleasanton knows how to build a rotary engine.

However, here are (only a couple) the facts:

He charged me $128 to swap out my fuel pump (which I've done myself 6 times and can do in under 15 minutes).

I later found out my rebuilt engine was never bolted down, but merely sitting on the engine mounts. The left side bolt was over-threaded into the red part of the Banzai mount due to their not using the huge washer when tightening the bolts. The right side mount was missing the bolt entirely! I had my car on the lift at Advanced Auto in San Francisco, and the owner Jeff and I verified this.

I mentioned to Rick that the steering was sloppy and for him to take a look at it while he had the car. So he goes ahead and replaces the rack bushings, which did NOTHING to fix the problem, and he charged me for the parts and the labor without my consent! (Fortunately, I had a torn bellows boot and could see by turning the steering wheel left and right that my steering rack needed to be replaced - this was again identified later by myself and Jeff at Advanced Auto.)

Very shortly after my rebuild, when I went to change my oil, I found my Pineapple oilpan bolt was torqued so tightly, I was literally dragging myself across the asphalt trying to loosen it! (btw I'm 170 lbs and I can roll out of bed and knock out 35 pull-ups in a row without breaking a sweat, so I'm NOT a weak guy.) I finally got it loose with hollow pipe connected to my breaker bar - essentially a 3-foot breaker bar!!!! - with one of my feet braced up against the car to keep me from sliding. Unbelievable....

I'm going to stop there because I feel my blood pressure rising, and I don't want to entertain these negative memories. I'm an honest, respectful and standup guy, but some things you just can't let fly.

I seriously could go on for PAGES about that place. What a NIGHTMARE. That guy knows he's one of the few rotary shops in the Bay Area, and milks the fact and doesn't give a sh!t about integrity. I wouldn't wish upon the person I dislike most on this planet 1/2 the bs that I experienced through his shop.

Think I'm making this up?
 

I wish I was.

Below is a sample of my receipt:

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...1/IMG_0065.jpg

Note the steering rack bushings parts and labor charge which I DID NOT AUTHORIZE.

Then the $56.38 to replace a cooling fan which was barely frayed in the first place, plus $25.60 to install it?!?! Again, I NEVER AUTHORIZED that. Then he had the nerve to tell me that if he didn't replace the fan, my engine would overheat - even with my Scoot hood with 7 giant holes in it?!?! (Click my avatar for a pic.)

Then there's $128 in labor to replace my fuel pump!

Since when to you charge $128 additional labor for installing an oilpan on a rebuild AND use $34.80 worth of sealant? Were there diamonds in the sealant that I was not aware of?

Then $35 labor if I actually want to have fuel injectors in my motor? Are you kidding?

Sadly I got screwed BIG TIME. He knew I was working full-time WHILE going to school to finish my Pre-Medical classes (which I recently finished with a B.S. in Cell and Molecular Biology) and that I DON'T have a lot of money.

Even for people I don't like, I treat EVERYONE with respect and integrity, and I can't believe he took advantage of a poor kid trying to put himself through school to be a Doctor.

N E V E R A G A I N.



Just have Karack build your next motor. End of discussion.

Karak: Thanks for your input. That's the kind of list I was looking for. And I see JuicyJosh has an opinion of one of them.

Cheers,
Jim

strangely enough this isn't the first time i have seen one of his motors leave his shop with the motor mounts not bolted down. juan from vacaville's motor had been just sitting on the mounts for months before i noticed that the nuts were just slightly threaded on. also he has almost no experience building performance rotaries to today's standards. if it's an original car and you have deep pockets rick usually doesn't do half bad work but remember to check your motor mounts, because apparently after the motor is in the bay he must think the job is done..

while looking for a shop to CNC mill rotors i asked Rick how much he charges to mill them to 3mm, he quoted me $900 to mill both rotors, i knew he would be a bit expensive but not THAT expensive. i found a machine shop who experimented on a few of my rotors and eventually got it dialed in and charged me $75 per rotor, sure they messed up a few rotors but $900? heh.. now i'm going through the same process after having moved but i have a shop that is doing them for me since that is the only thing i don't have the equipment to do.

Yea, I believe I got charged $15 by Rick to tighten a SINGLE nut on my accelerator cable bracket when I took my first gen to him when I was having vibration issues.

Then on another occasion, I got charged over $300 to replace my brake hoses because I had a problem with my brake pedal feel (turned out to be a defective brake booster) and all that money still could not fix my problem and Rick still released the car to me to drive back home.

I'd like a little more info on Jose Rodriguez. Where is he located? And do you have his contact details?

Thanks!

m

Rob at Pineapple racing, awesome guy, calls you on his own time when your parts are done, checks in to make sure things are working, and from the stuff that he has accomplished in the past, and his extensive history with mazda, i would say him. biggest problem with boosted race motors is that they twist and flex, the flex can be gotten rid of with the two piece e shaft, but the twisting is a little more complex. he says to use a thick oil pan brace, and that will get rid of alot if not almost all of the twisting threat to the motor.

go to San Francisco Region SCCA races to look for Jose..

not sure what kind of race engine you have in mind, but REAL race engine is extremely pricey, look up internal component prices on mazdatrix site to get an idea. if $500 invoice from Rick is a problem, then forget about it..

I have one of Mike Haag's motors in my ITS car, it's been great. You might what to talk with Bob Maybell, he has a good reputation as a builder in the race world. bob@thunderhill.com

Paul

Hi Gadd: Thanks for the referrals.

Sounds like this thread should be moved to the 'Bad Guy' Section :lol:

Just correcting Karack regarding Rotorsports in Santa Clara - he does indeed build motors. I know a few people running his motors on the street. Don't know anyone running his motors in a race scenario. Rotorsports and Rick's focus on the street driven car.

I've had a one of Dave Lemon's old backup motors in my E/P car for shakedown/tunig. If I could afford a full blown build, he's definitely be on the short list.

Jimeby:
What kind of motor are you looking to build, 12a or 13b?
What kind of racing and class?

This is to replace my current 5 year old race engine which finally tossed an apex seal while I was racing it on a race track. It's for SCCA club racing in ITS race class which I've been racing with this current race engine for the past 5 years. To conform to ITS race rules this race engine is a stock port GSL-SE 13b. For this race engine I retain the factory fuel injection and observe a race red line of 7000 rpm. I run this race engine extremely hard under race conditions in my race car on a race track and it currently holds two SCCA race track records, one for qualifying and one for racing at the Laguna Seca race track.

Ahhhhh now that felt good.

Sorry remydrm, I just had to vent for a second.

Jimeby, 5yrs on 1 motor! My God, I can't seem to get a season... shoot, an afternoon even!

I spoke to Mike Haag the other day. He seems like a nice guy and was extremely open to building around a budget.

He said he can take a deposit to disassemble a blown motor and work up an estimate to building it back to desired specs. He also said, he will not use damaged or "iffy" parts in the rebuild.. which he says can drive the cost up when compared to some other builders.

I think he means that he's developed a pretty good reputation and can't afford to slap a motor together and have it fail publicly.

So that's a great option.

I'm in the same boat so I'll keep you posted with any info I get.

if you are allowed i would switch to different apex seals, ceramics are best for minimal wear and can handle more detonation and do not flex like the stock seals can so they're ideal for time attack and endurance cars. sure they may be overkill but they will cause literally 0 rotor housing wear to keep your average compression up for the longhaul(they do have less cold compression than 2 piece seals do since they are 1 piece however). keep in mind ceramics are a bit pricier than your traditional seals are.

if you're interested in a build, drop me a PM.

CLR out of Miami is my choice for engines. He did some of the ALMS engines for the factory backed team when they ran the three rotor and has been doing race motors since the early eighties. He does all of his balancing inhouse. You can reach Carlos at 305-235-3696

BigAl...

SF Bay Shops
 

+1 for Bob Maybell @ Thunderhill. Nice guy and an excellent rotary information resource, especially for high performance / track purposes. Not sure if he still builds engines though.

+1 for Mike Haag. Rebuilds engines, transmissions, diffs. Good guy to talk to for race-oriented stuff. He also does tuning / troubleshooting on the dyno for a flat fee. Also, for you ITS people, his shop has a setup to extend the 5.12 pinion for use in FC diff. Mike used to travel the country to support rotary racing teams running with the SCCA.

PR Motorsports doesn't rebuild engines (but will remove/install / ship to desired engine builder). I've seen customer race cars at their shop, but most racing and expertise left with the departure of Rick Weldon. That said, if you need something specific done on your racecar, it's a good place to go. As for troubleshooting / repair, I have generally good experience. Recently, they helped me out with a much improved exhaust setup. For racing-specific issues, they directed me to Jose.

Jose's contact info: 510 289 2438
(I have not personally dealt with him, but he seemed knowledgeable over the phone).

+0 for Rick's Rotary. Charged a lot of money, didn't fix my problem (-1). Performed some diagnostic work which eventually led me down the right path (+1), which was to contact Ben.

+2 for Karack. Not really local any longer, but he was the most methodical mechanic I dealt with to solve a phantom power issue, even when I supplied him with incorrect info.

+1 for Rotorsport. Has done good work on my Mazdaspeed Protege (I think he still has 4 or 5 of these). He was upfront and honest when I was taking my rx-7 there.

I think you meant ITS?

Balancing of the engine assembly is permitted, but any lightening beyond that is not (Rule 9.1.3.D.1.k). Porting and polishing are specifically prohibited (Rule 9.1.3.D.2.a.)

And now, enter the morass of arcane SCCA IT rules.

Rule 9.1.3.D.1.p. (excerpt)
All engine components not otherwise listed in these rules shall meet factory specifications for stock parts. Where factory specifications are absent or unclear, the Club may establish an acceptable dimension and/or allowable tolerance from stock.

Whether specifications means "dimensions, mass, density, or materials" is unclear. I'm guessing the intent here is to disallow the use of components that could measurably increase the power output and contain costs to some extent. But substituting the OEM part with 1 piece seals or ceramic materials might not be technically legal. I haven't heard of the SCCA stewards tearing down engines to that level of detail, but, at the annual tech, I have heard them threatening to dyno top finishers within a class. That said, if they ever gave me a hard time for replacing an apex seal or any other such minute detail, I would tell them to f' off and take my racing elsewhere.

More to the point, I have heard experienced ITS engine builders say things like "there are things you can do" or "I can build you a top running ITS engine", but no one has revealed what those "secret" IT-legal modifications are. To comply with the rules without getting into any gray areas, it seems like only stock engines are allowed. Certain control systems (6PI VDI) can be disabled (e.g. forced into the optimal state for high RPM power output) or removed (e.g. deleting aux port sleeves is ok, but modifying them is not). If anyone knows a definitive recipe of legally-allowed engine "modifications" for ITS, I would be interested in learning it.

It seems that even SCCA officials don't know the answers. I recently spoke to someone who served on the GCR committee for several years and asked him if an aluminum driveshaft would be considered ITS legal. He said he couldn't give me a definitive answer, but if I pained it flat black and rolled it around in some grease and dirt there wouldn't be any cause for concern. He recently quit the rules committee, frustrated with the ambiguities, and the inconsistencies and randomness in their enforcement.

i'm curious also, because there is some easy tricks that can make a big difference in the long run. does the porting only refer to intake runners or port openings? because a simple auxiliary bridge port can bring in a few more HP without really touching the runners. also exhaust port sleeves, can they be replaced with turbo port sleeves? that should also free up a few more HP.

of course some of this requires a bit more fuel, probably more than a stock carb can provide but with fuel injection and say an Rtek or standalone it can be manageable.

with racing there always seems to be a grey area where people try to take the unfair advantage. to be competetive you also have to utilize that grey area.

There are always "things" IT and showroom stock guys do to get ahead, and a lot of it is grey or beyond in regards to the rules. Things like acid flowing/porting heads, runners, etc to give optimum flow while leaving no machine or tool marks, lightening rotating components, then media blasting etc. to give the appearance of an "untouched" factory part. Adding material then re-machining to change port timing etc while keeping "stock" dimensions. The list goes on and on. Racing rotary engine builders spend lots and lots of time on clearances, because as we all know a wee bit here or there means power. There has also been some creative machining done to rotors to lighten them up with the idea that if the engine was ever torn down they would take the hit the, but win races until proven out.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Rick actually recommended me? lol. i assume probably because he assumed it had an internal engine issue and was just trying to unload it on the builder because he didn't want to figure it out. i know most of the shops you went to could have figured it out, if they cared enough.

Yes, that was it. Everyone knows Ben cares! :lol:

Rule 9.1.3.B
.....competition adjustments, other than as outlined in section 9.1.3.C, are not allowed. Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered, or removed [for the purpose of obtaining any competitive advantage.]

The part in brackets was removed, starting with the 2009 GCR. Presumably, this was to eliminate the ambiguity of what constitutes a "competitive advantage." In reality, I think people have continued doing what they've been doing. For example, you can consider 6PI/VDI actuation to be part of the emissions system, so you can delete the solenoids and plumbing under rule 9.1.3.D.1.d, which (essentially) states that emissions control devices may be removed but not modified. These systems are not specifically mentioned in the rules. But, since they can only hurt high rpm power output when functioning improperly, they are typically left wired open.

RX-7's classified under ITS are 1984-1991 models, with non-turbo 13B engine, meaning that you probably can't take pieces from a turbo car and place them in a non-turbo engine assembly.

Rule 9.1.3.C seems to support this.

Any updated/backdated components shall be substituted as a complete assembly..... No interchange of parts between assemblies is permitted, and all parts of an assembly shall be as originally produced for that assembly..... Additionally, it is not permitted to “create” a model or type of car by updating or backdating assemblies.

There are a couple of rules specific to rotary engines, the most significant being:

9.1.3.D.2.a: Any porting or polishing is prohibited.
9.1.3.D.2.d: Alternate rotor seals and springs are permitted.

As far as engine internals are concerned, I guess you're supposed to figure out how to make power with fancy apex seals. ;)

Page 407 of the GCR on the spec line:
"5th and 6th intake port - actuators and valves may be removed or disabled"

To see how just how limiting the IT rules can be, I recently found out that my use of "S4 housings, S5 rotors, S5 intake, S4 TB and AFM" during my ITS days on my S4 was not even legal because of this rule:

"Any updated/backdated components shall be substituted as a complete assembly (engine long block, transmission/transaxle, induction system, differential/axle housing). No interchange of parts between assemblies is permitted, and all parts of an assembly shall be as originally produced for that assembly (such parts may, however, be coated, painted or plated)."

Good thing I did not race ITS very long, less than a year.

Daryl Drummond now builds Grand Am Rolex motors for 20B RX8s, they make 25 more hp at the crank than David Haskell of Speed Source's motors.

That being said you should go with Jose, his cost is only $500 I think and he's in Hayward.

Vdi
 

Resurrecting this because I'm finally getting around to simplifying a few things in the engine bay. I said earlier that VDI can be wired open, but there isn't a specific rule I could find to support this, so I must have been selling the "emissions removal" justification in my mind.

Just want to make sure I'm legal in both NASA and SCCA if I remove / disable the VDI actuator (i.e. "hard-wired" to optimize top-end power).

NASA: Modification of the Variable Dynamic Intake (VDI) by removal of the actuator mechanism, and permanently wiring the VDI open will be a No-Points Modification.

I couldn't find a similar statement in the SCCA GCR, but I've talked to some people / researched and it seems like this debate was settled in the past:

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forum...p?t-23538.html

(esp. the last post suggesting NASA and SCCA are in agreement on this)

Can anyone confirm?