Looking into building full chassis car and need some good readings.
Hey Guys,
I'm looking for some good books, or online articles on how to build a proper tube chassis and designing the suspension properly. I know there are also programs for the suspension part if anyone has dealt with any and would like to say which ones they used and if they were worth it or not let me know. Basically what I would like to do is build a similar car to the ariel atom but with a rotary engine in the back. I've been meaning to do something like this ever since the atom came out, just haven't had much time to dedicate to it. This build will most likely not take place till atleast 3-4 years from now, but would like to get started on the design and what not. thanks in advance. |
Since the build isn't happening for 3-4 years, that will get you most of the way through a mechanical engineering degree... that'd be the best place to start. ;)
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Rally-Car.../dp/085429984X http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Ca.../dp/1844253287 http://www.amazon.com/Engineer-Motor.../dp/0879381868 http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engine.../dp/1557880557 Good luck |
Are you in school for Mech E or was Travis just messing with you? If you ARE, you should see if your school has a Formula SAE team.
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Buy the current Grassroots Motorsports magazine. Somebody did exactly what you are asking about. there is also an article in there about the tools you will need to build it.
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Originally Posted by Gene
(Post 10003455)
Are you in school for Mech E or was Travis just messing with you? If you ARE, you should see if your school has a Formula SAE team.
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Originally Posted by Travis R
(Post 10003177)
Since the build isn't happening for 3-4 years, that will get you most of the way through a mechanical engineering degree... that'd be the best place to start. ;)
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Rally-Car.../dp/085429984X http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Ca.../dp/1844253287 http://www.amazon.com/Engineer-Motor.../dp/0879381868 http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engine.../dp/1557880557 Good luck |
Originally Posted by gracer7-rx7
(Post 10003515)
Buy the current Grassroots Motorsports magazine. Somebody did exactly what you are asking about. there is also an article in there about the tools you will need to build it.
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Sounds like a hell of a project Sam. But having seen what you've accomplished so far, I have no doubt that you'll pull it off. I'll be looking forward to seeing your progress once you get started on it. :)
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Aerodynamics and cooling systems, and a place to stick the monster hi-flow muffler that the rotary will require; keep all these things in mind up front while designing, not after thoughts that are tacked on later.
This is the best aero book I have found: http://www.amazon.com/Race-Car-Aerod...4216304&sr=8-1 |
Originally Posted by speedturn
(Post 10004002)
Aerodynamics and cooling systems, and a place to stick the monster hi-flow muffler that the rotary will require; keep all these things in mind up front while designing, not after thoughts that are tacked on later.
This is the best aero book I have found: http://www.amazon.com/Race-Car-Aerod...4216304&sr=8-1 I will most likely be building my own intake and muffler again so I'm not stuck with per-manufactured bulky parts. |
Those are some great books listed above. Also, You can not go wrong with the entire "to win" series of books.
Not a tube chassis car but you should read up on Palatov's build of his DP1 car. He documents a great amount of the design and thought process needed to do what you want to do. I did some of the machine work for his first build. Click this link and then the ? on the top right. Each page progresses with the numbers on the top of the page: http://www.dpcars.net/dp1dsn/index.htm He also has some later stuff where he went into production as well as other car designs. http://www.dpcars.net Another friend of mine has a good site for Aero stuff. http://www.mulsannescorner.com/ When you get a bit deeper let me know, I may have some software for you. I will need to dig it up but I should still have suspension software. -billy |
Putting the cooling in the front is a good idea IMO, that's where the best air is and it will get some weight to the front so you don't have too much in the back.
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I have not read all the books cover to cover except Staniforth's Race an Rally Car Source Book. It's the one that actually got me interested in Formula SAE.
A book I didn't list, but is on every car designers shelf is http://www.amazon.com/Race-Car-Vehic.../dp/1560915269 It's a lot more technical than the others. But it's my go-to reference book for most problems. |
Thats some really good info Billy, that carbon fiber stuff is really what I need to learn more about and this DP1 article is pretty good at it.
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Originally Posted by dj55b
(Post 10005510)
Thats some really good info Billy, that carbon fiber stuff is really what I need to learn more about and this DP1 article is pretty good at it.
Looks like he started another project. The DP2 is a tube frame car. http://www.dpcars.net/dp2/dp2009.jpg |
Not a fan of that chassis and it doesn't look like it would meet the rules of most sanctioning bodies.
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Herb Adams Chassis Engineering
Herb Adams Chassis Engineering will walk you through creating a Trans-am series style 2x3 rectangular frame rail chassis. For an atom-style, look for the how to build a sportscar for $250 books.( By Ron Champion) It covers a front engine locost, but the basics apply for an atom-like car.
First thing you need to do is get the rule book on the series you plan to race in. Make sure the chassis and cage conform to the rules. Second thing you need to do is figure out your tires. Again, check the rules for the class wheelbase and ensure you get the measurement correct. (center to center or outer sidewall to outer sidewall?) From the tires, work in, figure out the uprights. For an atom-clone I'd be tempted to use older Honda double wishbone parts, use the same front and rear. Should be able to either use stock arms or aftermarket modified arms (or build your own). From there, it is all about packaging. You need to fit the engine, transaxle and structural members to all tie into the suspension mounting points in the strongest manner possible. Other major tasks should be to design with as flat an underside as possible, generally a slight upslope towards the back will be beneficial. Between Herb and Champion you should have the big picture. -Trent |
I can recommend chassis engineering by herb. I own that book and have read it cover to cover 10x times, and the inside of the cover is now all handwritten notes of the formula's the book is full of.
-Jacob |
The Car will not be built to compete in any specific class, more of a street car/weekend track warrior.
Originally Posted by TrentO
(Post 10006305)
Herb Adams Chassis Engineering will walk you through creating a Trans-am series style 2x3 rectangular frame rail chassis. For an atom-style, look for the how to build a sportscar for $250 books.( By Ron Champion) It covers a front engine locost, but the basics apply for an atom-like car.
First thing you need to do is get the rule book on the series you plan to race in. Make sure the chassis and cage conform to the rules. Second thing you need to do is figure out your tires. Again, check the rules for the class wheelbase and ensure you get the measurement correct. (center to center or outer sidewall to outer sidewall?) From the tires, work in, figure out the uprights. For an atom-clone I'd be tempted to use older Honda double wishbone parts, use the same front and rear. Should be able to either use stock arms or aftermarket modified arms (or build your own). From there, it is all about packaging. You need to fit the engine, transaxle and structural members to all tie into the suspension mounting points in the strongest manner possible. Other major tasks should be to design with as flat an underside as possible, generally a slight upslope towards the back will be beneficial. Between Herb and Champion you should have the big picture. -Trent |
Originally Posted by dj55b
(Post 10006632)
The Car will not be built to compete in any specific class, more of a street car/weekend track warrior.
From the sounds of what you are wanting to do a good class to use as a basis would be the Sports Racer class in the SCCA. Specifically the CSR since that is where most automotive base power plants run. This is a open class where you can design and build your own purpose built racecar. These guys share allot of their build details and should help you with suppliers of off the shelf pieces and other design ideas. Also some great aero discussions as the class was recently overtaken by floor tunnels and diffusers. They have a forum @ http://dsrforum.yuku.com/ http://www.westracecars.com/west/UserFiles/W-1_1.jpg -billy |
I'm going to guess he wants more street and less track than a Sports Racer. But I agree it's a good place to get ideas.
A Sports 2000 might be good to look at too since a lot of them are 2 seaters. I think they are all automotive powered, and tend to be a little older/simpler than a modern DSR/CSR. We have a few updates to make to our DSR prototype, then we head back to the track. |
Originally Posted by bwaits_
(Post 10007704)
Sam, it is still good to use the competition rules for SCCA or NASA as a baseline for the chassis. These will list tube sizes / wall thickness for the overall weight of the vehicle. As well as any particular mandated support tubes. Max number of bends in certain areas and such. These are all good things to base your chassis on.
-billy to make it street legal it needs to meet the Federal Vehicle Safety Standard (FVSS) AND the requirements from the army.... |
Originally Posted by Travis R
(Post 10007800)
We have a few updates to make to our DSR prototype, then we head back to the track.
I have a CSR about 75% 3D modeled. I also picked up an Elan DP02 carbon body. One day I will get back on that project. http://piccolosognorestaurant.com/beta/DSC_0106.JPG |
www.zilkervehicle.com
The site hasn't been updated in a while. But the car is basically done. But we found out our front splitter isn't sturdy enough for a bumpy track, so we need to modify it. www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1460494952311 |
Originally Posted by Travis R
(Post 10007889)
www.zilkervehicle.com
The site hasn't been updated in a while. But the car is basically done. But we found out our front splitter isn't sturdy enough for a bumpy track, so we need to modify it. www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1460494952311 -billy |
Thanks! I think that and the 3rd spring setup is what makes it different from other sports racers.
Let us know if you need any help with your car. Those uprights are designed to be adaptable to other cars. |
the books are all good - but go here and look around first:
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/ Great source of info from a lot of people who have "been there, done that". -b |
Originally Posted by dj55b
(Post 10006632)
The Car will not be built to compete in any specific class, more of a street car/weekend track warrior.
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Lol, I've got the FB for that :)
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Originally Posted by dj55b
(Post 10003553)
Have you personally read these books? I just ordered the last one listed on the list there yesterday actually.
Oh yea, almost forgot - if you want you head really swimming with seriously deep information: http://www.millikenresearch.com/ |
I think I'm going to go over budget just getting books :)
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these are some really good explanations!! cool
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This is such a great thread! Keep the info flowing please.
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Also looking to build a tube chassis car
Originally Posted by dj55b
(Post 10002784)
Hey Guys,
I'm looking for some good books, or online articles on how to build a proper tube chassis and designing the suspension properly. I know there are also programs for the suspension part if anyone has dealt with any and would like to say which ones they used and if they were worth it or not let me know. Basically what I would like to do is build a similar car to the ariel atom but with a rotary engine in the back. I've been meaning to do something like this ever since the atom came out, just haven't had much time to dedicate to it. This build will most likely not take place till atleast 3-4 years from now, but would like to get started on the design and what not. thanks in advance. Hi there, I am also looking to build a small tube chassis unit, but think of a modern-day Le Mans car styled unit, 2 seater with a 1.6L mechanical diesel out of a vw, with a moderate-boost turbo and sweet suspension. Goal is to have something super cool and efficient to see how far I could get on 100 L of diesel haha! |
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