i am with the no downforce theory on this

Boswoj, I have taken no offense. You,Damon, Carl Byck (sp), and others are very good at explaining things. I look forward to you all's posts as they usually contain good useful information. I really wasn't into physics, geometry, etc. in high school, and have some college, as such I passed all the classes, but didn't retain much. Of course once I found my love of cars, on this level, and racing, I have been reading all that I can anywhere, and actually remembering teachers saying that we will need this after school, and then thinking, right!! Fred Puhn's How to make a car handle, is either in my bathroom or car, to read while in line or stuck in traffic. I usually go just reread to understand stuff, even though I have read it front to back numerous times. I also like Carrol Smith's stuff, and one good one is Smokey Yunik's book, Best Damn Garage in Town. Amid the awesome stories, some good technical stuff, more history of things and innovations than current techniques, but very interesting anyway.
Turbo23, I hope this has not run you off, this is your thread, not trying to highjack. There is some very good info in here.
Thanks to all, Maybe we can keep this going. Some great info in here.

Cheers,
Travis