Fontana, Carrera GT hits the wall 170mph Fatal
 

My condolences to the families and friends involved. As you all know I am forever trying to make my car, and my freinds cars safer. In this instance, it seems a loosely controlled open track event at Fontana cost two people their lives... More, and more we see faster and faster street cars at HPDEs. While such events are relatively rare, it seems we have had alot of fatalities in amatuer motorsports in the last year. I hope everyone reading this takes an extra mioment to consider all ioof their safety gear before the next time the head to the track. Case and point, I recently recieved an invatation from a local HPDE group to instruct a first time driver in their 1200hp Supra. The car is a drag car with R compounds. The jist of the invite was that anyone having a death wish, and qualified to instruct should contact the event organizers. Problem is that is obviously no joke... Not only does the individual endanger himself, but all those on (or near) the track. I know such things will happen, but at some point everyone is going to takle a hard look at safety at these events. Again, be safe, and see you at the track, Carl

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=287682

You have to be a member to look at the posts... can you post anything of interest here? I've seen two news reports on it, one saying the car caught fire, and another with a picture of the car resting against a guard rail.

Here is a local news page on the accident!

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html

Here's another account; Below is what I got from another website

Quote:
"The person driving the vehicle who was behind him (Ferrari Stradale) just called us and told us what happened from his view. He was first on the scene. He said the GT past him at over 150mph as they eased onto the straigh a way and was traveling close to 165mph when he saw the car swerve. He got his car stopped and was first on the scene. One person was DOA and the other (driver) passed away in the helicopter enroute to the hospital.

What happened with the pit marshall:

Marshall saw the GT coming and gave the Ferrari owner the "GO" Ferrari guy hesitated.. looked back at the track.. passenger was shouting "GO".. then marshall says "STOP" and the Ferrari guy takes off."

Quote:
"Ben died on the track with a fellow lover of cars Corey as his passenger. He was nearing a the end of a high speed straight away when another car was waived on to the track causing Ben to swerve to avoid the collision striking a concrete retaining wall head on. Corey died instanteously and Ben died as he was being flown to the hospital."
another account of the incident:

"I have tears in my eyes as I write this. I witnessed the whole thing.

IT WAS NOT BEN'S FAULT!!! THE ORGANIZER HAD PICKED THE 150MPH ZONE AS THE ENTRANCE TO THE TRACK AND THE F-CAR DRIVER PULLED IN FRONT OF HIM NEAR THE END OF THE STRAGHT. THERE WERE NO CORNER WORKS AND NO FLAGS!!! HE TRIED TO AVOID HIM AND SPUN OUT AND HIT THE WALL AT NEARLY THAT SPEED. "

Regardless of the cause, a very good guy, healthy contributor to many sites, husband & father to an infant daughter lost his life.

Carl

Images; http://www.carshopusa.com/speedway_crash/

What a shame! I actually met the driver in La Jolla about 6 months ago and he let me sit in his car and see the engine. He ever turned it on and revved it for me. He was so nice. About two other people came up too and he let all of us sit in it. Said he probably spent an hour a day just letting folks check his car out.

I'm going to a Porsche Club event this weekend at Buttonwillow. I hope all goes well.

man that sucks ,but at least he died doing somthing he loved

As a motorsports safety advocate, like yourself, I don't know how much could have been prevented from a car standpoint. The monocoque is far superior to any space frame design in a crash because of the way the loads are dissapated. I am fairly confident in saying that it wasn't a function on roll bars or the like.

very sad story

yeah... looking at the pictures the car is in pretty good shape for a 170mph crash. I can see how the passenger got obliderated. Lots less damage to the driver's side. Guess the impact forces were too strong for the driver to survive.

Agreed, my point was mainly that this is a powerful reminder that HPDEs are particularly dangerous. Inexperienced drivers are often on the track, understaffing, and lack of proper saftey measures are not uncommon. Obviously many cars ( my street car included) are traveling at race speeds with little saftey equipment. Safety was a large part of my decision to build a dedicated track car. Again a very sad event. Carl

Just goes to show how important the quality of the organization putting the HPDE on is. This is why I am very selective as to what organization I run with. Hopefully, the organization who put this event on learned something from this and takes action to prevent this from happening in the future. I seriously question some of the track layouts as far as entering the track -- Buttonwillow has the best setup I've run on with track entrances/exits that occur completely off the driving line and off the front straight.

What a tragedy, and my thoughts go to the family of the driver/passenger of the Porsche.

Sounding like the guys broke both of their necks!!

thats how the usual person dies in a crash

Having seen many high-speed accident trauma patients, I can tell you that at 160 mph there is an awful lot of energy to dissipate during a collision. Of course, much of it depends on the angle of impact, etc. Its possible that full restraints, Hans devices, etc may have helped, but I dunno...

My condolences to their families and loved ones.


Stew

Not always true. I work in a trauma center and we have frequently seen people come in with not a scratch, and yet internally vessels were literally ripped apart causing massive internal hemorrhage. A lot of these people make it to the hospital because the bleeding staunches itself inside the body (tamponades). Once they are opened up to explore and repair, the bleeding cannot be controlled and it's all over.

Condolenses to friends and family...

I was thinking about that pit exit on a long straight...
Laguna Seca pit exit it at the exit of the longest part of the track - T1 going into T2.
T1 is a small left, but it makes going down and into T2 blind.
If you got the cajones, you can take T1 at triple digits speeds without lifting.
I've seen entry speeds into T2 approaching 160mph!
You would think putting the pit exit after a blind turn at the end of the longest part of the track would invite disaster, but I've never heard of such within the past couple decades.
So I don't think blaming the design of the pit exit is good enough.

I think the track officials need to be experience enough to handle a V-10(?) breathing Porsche that will FLY down such a long stretch.
If a collision was imminent, I would ran in front of the Ferrari with flags waving just to cut him off before entering the track.
There are usually officials at the pit exit for such safety???

But, this is all heresay, as the consequences have been done... :(


-Ted

True, but at Laguna Seca, you are confined on the pit exit to hug the wall all the way around until after the trackout point for T2. As you fly over the hill at T1, there is really no reason for your car to be so far left as to be in the pit exit lane, although you may get pretty close...

"Bleeding out" is nasty, and pretty much always fatal. Specially when your aorta or other blood vessels in your uper torso rupture, you cant stop the bleeding really...and the person usually dies with in minutes. I mean really it doesnt matter how much safety equipment you have, when it comes to pyhsics and human flesh...sadly our bodies are just to fragile to take that abuse. I had a car full of friends almost 2 years ago flip at over a 100, the only person who died was the passenger in the drivers side seat because of his seatbelt, everyone else was ejected from the car. 170...:eek: :( May he rest in peace and my prayers are with his family.

Having had a good friend killed in a side impact crash at alot lower speed I can guess the likely cause of death. As happened to my friend; ruptured caroded(sp?) artery in the neck and a basal skull fracture(this also killed Dale Earnhardt). This happened to my friend in a fully prepped race car at the slowest corner on the track(less than 80 mph entrance speed). At 100+ with no head restraint and only standard shoulder belts they never had a chance. as far as cars entering and grid control we will likely never have a good idea what happened. All this takes place in the blink of an eye at 100+mph. Driving a car at top speed on a race track is dangerous and you can lose your life. Be careful at all times and don't assume anyone is going to be looking out for you. watch what is going on in the hot pit, are there cars about to enter the track? don't assume the grid marshall will hold them. the infield track at Cal Speedway does not have an official hot pit area, so the entering and exiting of the track is a bit tricky. I feel for the family and I understand what happens in these situations with all the rumors, true and false. Please everyone wait until all the information has been sorted before passing judgement on the organizer or fellow participants. These type of incidents are why I will only run on the track with full safety gear, even in hot lap or "HPDE" type events. I will also recomend everyone who runs at the track have a seat with head restraints and a HANS device. be careful

it's been quite a discussion at FerrariChat where Ben was an active participant.
www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61681


This track day event was put on by FOC

What a tragedy. Def. is gonna make me think twice about just joining the local HPDE's...I really didn't fully realize the risks before this...

As per ppl guessing the cause of death, 1) Does it matter? and 2) Really...you guys are just totally guessing. There are so many factors that go into it, you have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of telling by just looking. And you guys haven't even seen the bodies... There's a reason why there's a morgue and autopsies are performed. There are a 1001 ways they could have met their fate, and really, it does no good nor does it show "smarts" by having you guys guess blindly.

Oh and I'm actually quite bothered by how well the driver side held up. From the elementary physics I know, that's bad. The more the car breaks apart, the better your chances are of survival. Death in such situations really becomes a function of momentum, which is force over time. The momentum is ENORMOUS, to say the least, in such an accident. So the longer the impact takes (larger crumple zones, more damage to the structure of the car), the less force the occupants will take. That's why Mercedes crush like tin foil, because w/ such huge multiple crumple zones, the impact is spread over a much longer time period, dissipating the impact the occupants will take. It's also why F1 cars are designed to pretty much break apart into 1001 peices, each absorbing and taking w/ it a part of the impact, thus lessening the overall force applied to the driver. At high enough speeds, however, it's gonna be fatal no matter what...

this is sad
i hope tracks that hold these events learn greatly from this like this
and i hope they re design a few tracks to better suit/ be safer for the drivers

That's not the track's fault, it's the club's fault. Not all track require corner workers for the events and allow the club's to "make their own choice" on that part (which typically just comes down to money). However, a Ferrari club event, you would think they would spring for the corner workers....

I guess you haven't seen this video:
http://www.dariusrudis.com/videos/vipercrash.mpeg

;)

HPDE events are as safe as the club makes them. Just verify that they have corner workers (usually SCCA people) and proper safety equipment on hand. HPDE's are never 100% "safe" as there are just too many variables unlike real sanctioned racing (i.e. no real safety equipment required other than a helmet).

Ramy, to add to what Mahjik said, I wouldn't be "nervous" about running an HPDE with a good organization, but yes, you do have to fully realize the risks. To be honest with you though, I feel safer on the track than I do driving on I-5 to get to the track....and I'm not joking.

The key to looking at an HPDE club is too see how long they've been doing it, what is their safely record, ask for local opinion on the club, etc. There are a few Cali clubs I would NOT run with. The final point is if you get to the track and you don't feel comfortable with how it is being run...LEAVE! Tell them why you are leaving and try to get as much of your money back as you can. It's not worth the couple hundred dollar entry fee to run in an unsafe environment, IMO.

Tyler, I hate you lol. I just wet my pants watching that video...OMG. :eek: I definitely believe the tech inspection is important...but wow... that's a wakeup call.

There are some guys I know here (like Ptrhahn) who goes to Summit Point and VIR on a regular basis. I'm sure he's got a leg up on who's good at organizing a fun yet safe HPDE, and who isn't. It's scary cuz this crash (the Porsche) was w/ the Ferrari Club, right? I was just looking at the upcoming Ferrari Club of Washington HDPE...

:rofl: That's hilarious...but I totally understand. My friend and I were just commenting as such the other day...we went to get something to eat (we're in DC), and I swear, it's EXACTLY as if I'm playing that old 80's game "Paperboy." There are obstacles on every single turn, corner, block, light, you name it. As for the track, I'm still niaeve in the sense that I think the car will do what it's supposed to do. I don't realize the 1001 things that can go wrong like a tire blowout, brakes going, suspension part failing, etc etc. Which reminds me...I gotta get my cage and extinguisher in :eek:

Ramy,

Tech inspections are ok, but to be honest; you'll basically pass as long as fluids aren't dumping out of your car (at most DE's). You still have to do your own homework on some things. For instance, that Viper I'm sure passed Tech; but Tech wont' know if your brakes are going to hold up or not.

I do agree with Tyler; I feel safer on the track than the US highways. The track has far less idiots than the streets. :)

The Mazdadrivers and NASA events I've been to at those two tracks have been very well run.

You mean you don't think it was simply brake pads fading/wearing down? It was prob a brake component failure...possibly because the braking system simply wasn't up to the task of handling a track event? Man...you're gonna get me rethinking my quick split decisions to just run to a HPDE. Rather be scared and prepared than...well...a stain on a wall somewhere.

I almost NEVER come into this section (Race Car Tech), but I'd imagine there are quite a few threads here w/ checklists to ensure their FD is track-ready, right? Wanna do your magic Mahjik, and hook me up w/ a link? :bigthumb:

I didn't mean to insinuate that they're bad at organizing etc...it was just ironic that I happen to be looking at their event online the other day...

It's hard to say just from looking at the video. It could have been fade or it could have been a mechanical failure. He doesn't appear to slow down at all. When I had it happen, the car slowed at least a little (enough the make the turn which wasn't as sharp as the Viper turn). It happened the first time I was at the track; the proper thing to do is to go straight, don't try to make the turn (both feet in).

Check this link:
https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech-103/track-check-list-so-speak-254212/

;)

HOLY...your FIRST time? And you went back? LOL. My hat's off to you sir :boink:

Am I right in guessing that going straight ensures a direct head-on frontal accident, which decreases fatality rates as compared to impacts at angles (and possible rollovers associated w/ them)?

Thanks! :bigthumb:

I've seen that Viper vid before. I think it is a year or two old. If I remember correctly the analysis from the instructor was that the driver was unfamiliar with heal/toe downshifting and while trying to slow the car with the brakes he inadvertently was also depressing the loud pedal. In a car like the Viper with so much HP the gas pedal will always win.
The event at Cal Speedway is truly tragic and it begs the question “are the people driving these cars and running these events really qualified to do so?” I have been instructing for a long time and I will not get into a high HP car with just anyone.

I was thinking the same. I did everything backward, and got the FD, THEN an FB...obviously the smart thing is to start simple and learn techniques on a low hp car FIRST...

When I first took the FD out to an HPDE, it was my first HPDE ever, and I gotta tell you, I was drivin like a girl. Really. I had pretty much every car passing me, cuz I was focusing on learning the lines, but most importantly, terrified of boosting in a turn and wrecking the car (or my body work lol). By the end of the session, I was a lot more confident and a lot faster, but no where near pushing the FD as it could be pushed. Of course, having 285s in the rear gives you a nice cushion :) But yea...if it was me instructing (hypothetically), and I had a driver who's skill level was uknown, I'd very seriously be like "Hey it's great you drive a Viper, but until you get my OK, you're pushing the 88 BMW instructor car..."

The brake fade was damn scary, no doubt about it. After learning about it, I just took it easier on the car and enjoyed the rest of the day. I then purchased track specific pads to make sure the problem wouldn't come back anytime soon. :)

There are a lot of things that can make your heart jump while running on the track. Brakes is just one of them. :) However, as long as you listen to your instructors as you evaulate your sessions, you'll learn how to handle the situations without over-reacting.

Yep, going straight it to (try and) keep the car from rolling.

I have had two incidents where my brakes did no perform up to par (although they were far from failing) and I knew I wouldn't quite make the turn. I just went straight and fortunately both times I was not going to fast, there was plenty of runoff and I just came to a safe stop a little bit off the track. Embarassing but no harm done. Plus if you go off sideways and the dirt is soft you could catch your wheels and role.

I now have done more modifications to my braking system them probably any other part of my FD.

-John

What more is there to be done than a big brake kit (calipers, pads, and rotors)? Steel braded lines? Anything else?

There is a lot you can do. Don't want to get into it all here...

In my opinion properly ducted front brakes make all the difference in the world. If you do put on larger brakes it's important that you keep the brakes balanced. This can be done with proportioning valve or aftermarket master cylinder. I changed to the 929 master cyclinder to reduce pedal travel and balanced out the larger front brakes a bit with the larger RZ model rear brakes. However a proportioning valve would help. Also make sure you bleed your brakes before every event. Speedbleeders make this easy.

Steel braded brake lines help the pedal feel a bit stiffer but aren't a big deal in my opinion.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...Ben/ripben.jpg

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html

Fluids(very important IMO) pads(i would go with some street/track pads like hawk HP+ or HPS or if you can actual track pads) any sort of reinforced brake lining(usually steel braided) good rotors(such as brembo) and dont fall for the slotted/cross drilled bullcrap it doesnt do anything for you just make sure you're getting the real deal name brand because ebay fake o's have been known to break on the street, now rotor failure on track would be catastrophic. 4 pot or 6 pot calipers as well(many good ones out there like stoptech, brembo, wilwood, endless/zeal(very expensive but very nice) GREX(again very expensive but very nice). also rollbars/rollcages, racing seats, head restraints, a good helmet, a good harness and good preparation helps

Thanks :) So I guess I should hold of on HPDE's until I get a bigger bake kit? I'm running stockers now w/ HP pads on Brembo rotors.

You don't need a big brake kit for tracking. Here's what you do need:

1. Proper brake pads for the track
2. Proper brake fluid

I'm using N-Tech's Lapping Day pad for the front (just using Bonez Stage I street pads on the rear). A pad with a higer coefficient of friction (and higher heat range) is just as effective on the track as a big brake kit. I just switch the Lapping Day pads off when I get home and put the Bonez back on for the street.

I've been running those pads, ATE Super Blue, SS lines (not a big deal) and have not had any fade since even running on RCompound. The goal is to use the right brake pad/fluid for the right application.

Adding some ducting will also help, but it all starts with the pads and the fluid.

Just because your car can do 150-170 MPH does not mean you have to go that fast. Especially at a HPDE there is no reason to go that fast especially for a street car and / or beginner.

My 1st ever open track day I lifted and kept my TII at 130 MPH on the front straight. The instructor noticed right away and thanked me. I could have easily hit 150+ on that straight my exit speed on the last turn before the straight was 80MPH I was at 130 1/3 of the way down the straight. Once I got passed by a Supercharged Z-06 who was probably hitting 170+. I wanted to live and so did my instructor. I had no business going any faster.

Anyone who is doing a DE remember you have an instructor in your car that has put their lives in your hands. Ask the instructor about hairy stories they all have them. My hats off to anyone who is brave enough to get in the right seat and instruct.

Back on topic, its always a horror to see or hear of a fatality on the track. The good that can come from this may be that we as casual track drivers get more serious about safety and hopefully the companies that run these events will learn from this and be more cautious. I would hate to be that pit flag man right about now I am sure he is feeling pretty bad.

common misconception of the "proportioning valve".

It doesn't proportion the brakes. It's an accumulator valve for the rear. It can only help to eliminate rear bias. it cannot, under any circumstances, proportion the braking force.

As was stated above the stock brakes are good and often work just fine at the track with good fluid and track specific brake pads.

Plenty of people use the stock brakes at the track. I find that people (like me) who find the stock brakes instufficient after trying good track pads and fluids are having problems for the following reasons:

1) They drive the car really hard and are hard on the brakes
2) They are running racing tires that offer a lot more grip allowing the car to brake with more force and therefore create more thermal stress on the brake system
3) Racing at tracks that are hard on brakes - lots of braking zones or places where you have to brake quickly from triple digit speeds to under 50mph.

So... go ahead and use the stock brakes at the track. If you run street tires and don't drive too hard you should be just fine. At a track that is easy on brakes you might be fine no matter how hard you drive or what tires you run.

In my opinion if you are killing your stock brakes at your first couple track days you're probably driving harder than a beginner should anyway. Take it easy when you learn a track the first time.

It's damn scary to look at that. Last season I was at a lapping event and broke a front end part pushing the wheel out of the fender. Lost all steering and locked up all 4 wheels at about 145km/h. You don't realise how fast you're going till something goes wrong. Luckily I had a large area of grass to run into. The most disturbing part for me was that I was one corner away from a straight where I can reach 200km/h which has a concerete wall literally feet away from my entry point post straightaway. With only stock belts and a seat I wouldn't have stood a very good chance. It was a very valuable lesson learned, since I've commissioned for a cage to built, purchased a 6 point harness and I'm currently looking into an SA helmet with a HANS device equiped. I've also learned the paramount importance of a thorough tech inspection the day prior to an event.

It's terrible to see someone die on a track. It may not mean much, but my condolences to the friends and family.

Aren't the Carrera GT brakes ceramic and designed for continous braking?