Fastest lap times in a 3rd gen (need results to one up M3 owner)
 

A friend of mine owns an E36 M3 and claims that the FDS is only marginally faster on a road course (modded but still streetable). I'd like to throw a few numbers in his face if possible. In particular I'm looking for laptimes at the Glen, limerock and VIR.

Chuck Stickley ran a 2:09.471 in an E36 at the Glen. Can we beat that???

awww come on. I guess M3s are more reliable AND faster. I was hoping for at least 1 for 2.

Dude, I hate to break this to you but BMW E36 M3s are FAST on the road course, especially Chuck Stickley's SUPERCHARGED E36 M3 Lightweight. There's another BMW club racer who's even quicker than Stickley--Pierre Collet. He has an E36 M3 Lightweight with a Euro M3 motor making 360 hp. Pierre's car is lightened to its absolute minimum of 2500 to 2600 lbs. At Putnam Park Pierre's car turns 1:15s, while Chuck Stickley's in the 1:17s to 1:18s. To put this in perspective my best Putnam Park laptime in my FD R1 (which is pretty much a street car set up for drivers education events) was 1:20.83, with consistent 1:21s to 1:22s. I have not been able to break into the 1:19s yet this year at Putnam Park. FWIW Diasio D962s turn 1:12s to 1:14s at Putnam Park, and D962s are 1500 lbs with 150 hp full-blown race cars...Yeah BMW E36 M3s are fast given a really GOOD driver!

What makes them so fast? Is it something about the car or is it the driver???

or maybe more importantly, what does it have the a FD doesnt??? Why cant we run those times???

STEPHEN

thanks Sleeper. I feel better knowing that Chuck's car isn't exactly stock. When my friend gave me that time he neglected to mention the supercharger;) Regardless 360hp in a sub 3000lb car is a pretty good hp to weight ratio.

What tires and boost are you running? I'm assuming the above quoted BMW times are on slicks.

SPOautos--the E36 M3 handles and STICKS very well...some how the BMW's suspension works to maximize the car's mechanical grip. The tires most BMW E36 M3 club racers use are Hoosier R3S03s. The E36 BMW setup is 9 x 17 SSR Comps or Forgeline RS with 245/40-17 R3S03s all around. Also BMW brakes are just phenomenal in hauling the car down from big speed.

I think our cars are capable as well given the proper mods, but to my knowledge, and IMHO, only Brad Barber could run Stickley's and Collet's times. Brad's car is very trick, and Brad's an outstanding driver (easily a match for Stickley and Collet).

CCarlisi--I run 245/45-17 and 275/40-17 Hoosier R3S03s mounted on 8.5 x 17 and 9.5 x 17 SSR Comps. I'm using Type RS/RZ FD Rx7 J-spec brakes all around with Porterfield R4E brake pads. Boost is 8 to 9 psi, with stock ECU.

If we're talking stock prep cars
 

like say drivers education prepped E36 M3s vs a drivers education prepared FD Rx7 R1 like mine, then there's no comparison. I can easily run with E36 M3s prepared for drivers eds. From the showroom floor the E36 M3s make 240 hp, so there's really not much of a match in that regard. My Rx7 makes 250 hp with a much lighter chassis.

Ramon Ceron (rceron) and I will be at the Badger Bimmer BMW CCA OctoberFAST drivers education event @ Road America Oct 4/5/6...so anyone in the area can witness for yourselves. Ramon's car is much faster than mine, and with the cooler October air, Ramon and I will make consistent hp @ RA. Without being too boastful, I'm confident Ramon and I will have no trouble with drivers education-prepared E36 M3s :cool:

GT class
 

Here's a link that might substantiate this debate:

http://www.theracesite.com/results.cfm?fri=2446

Unfortunately, it's only going to bolster your friend's claim about M3's. Mind you, these results show an E46 M3; which, arguably, is a better handling/track car than the E36 M3. Having not actually witnessed the race, I couldn't tell you how good a driver Cam Worth is nor could I say how good Jeff McMillen is either. And, add in the fact that Pettit Racing was funding the RX-7 ... probably on a much smaller budget than the Bimmers and Porsches. So, take it FWIW.

go to http://www.onelapofamerica.com, go into history for the 2001 event (they didn't go to watkins glen in 2002), click on results, and see the RX-7s finishing better than the M3s.

that might help. You can check the other courses too, and see that the RX-7s finished better on those as well.

thanks Martini:)

Check this out
 

This is an E36 with an S42 (4 cyl) motor in it:

http://clubb5.stealthx32.com/Assen-bmwSTW.wmv

That sounds like a Super Touring spec E36 race car. Very impressive.

I can't understand how you are comparing non-stock vehicles...the debate is just going to rage forever!


-Ted

The M3 is certainly a nice vehicle. I was amazed last fall at VIR when a new M3 was running very quick lap times. It was keeping up with some of the most highly modded 7's for a couple of laps. The M3 was on street tires and the 7's were on race tires. I don't know about driver skill for the guy in the M3 but Rick Potter among others were their for comparison.
I was certainly impressed with this car.

The problem with comparing CARS at an open track even is the vast difference in the DRIVERS. Its not like an F1 grid where everyone is within a few 10ths.

What we DO know? The FD is one of the lightest, stiffest <mass production> roadcars, with <still> worldclass suspension design. With reasonable bolt ons will produce 290-300 rwhp, up to 500 w/ single T, and can easily support 255-285 size tires on a normal upgrade wheel.

E36 M3s are A. Heavier (in any normal trim). B. I'll be nice and say the suspension design is equal. C. produces 240 hp stock and won't come close to 300 rwhp without major mods, and i doubt you could stuffthe same size tires under it. Regardless of what any one person may run, i think its obvious that the car doesn't hold quite the same potential. It COULD be that its easier to drive fast than an FD... Or that the far greater numbers of that have been proffessionally raced and developed under big budgets have trickled-down parts and setups to the common guys... like 911s

E46... whole 'nother ballgame. MUCH more HP, stiffer chassis, huge wheels/tires, etc. Time will tell.

Add in the fact that Mazda hasn't backed the RX-7 in competition for ... I don't even know ... x years. And how many really GOOD drivers have been racing RX-7's consistently over the last couple of years? You could probably count them all on one hand. And, Mazda does not have nearly the amount of pull in class restrictions as Porsche, Audi, or BMW. Sucks for the little guys ...

The E46 M3's are plenty fast. Very beatable in auto-x though. Back end likes to come around too easily (like RX-7's don't either :rolleyes: ) and it pushes too much in the corners. But that is in its stock form. Setup for a track and on a road course with much smoother transitions and less abrupt direction changes ... they'd be a handful.

ptrhahn wrote:
"With reasonable bolt ons will produce 290-300 rwhp, up to 500 w/ single T."

Is there even one FD owner in the US that is running 500rwhp(hahahaha) or even 400 rwhp on the track? Based on how much trouble my friends have keeping the temps in check at 12psi I doubt it.

A motor a season, which is what most of the people I know that regularly track their modded FDs shoot for is unacceptable in my mind. I'd rather use the 4k a year to buy a much more expensive car. Once you factor reliability into consideration I think the FD's track HP is greatly reduced. I would say 320 at the flywheel is more reasonable(revisions are welcome). Now you only have about 60 more than an E36, but the E36 has low end torque, no boost spike, better fuel economy, better brakes and still a much better chance of being driven home under its own power at the end of the day. I think many of these advantages are true when comparing a stock E36 to an R1 as well.

And regardless of all this nobody :( has yet to beat the M3 times I posted. I also want to mention that I was told by another M3 owner that stickley's 2:09 was done sans the supercharger.

-Chris (going into the garage to kiss his FD and apologize to it for all the bad things he has been saying.)

I will post this question to Brad Barber on the opentracking forum. I'm confident Brad's turned faster laps than Chuck Stickley' E36 M3 lap at the Glen.

You could also email him yourself at bradrx7@bradbarber.com

Thanks for the info guys. I'll drop brad a line and post back with the results

Steve Kan tracks (road race) his car with I believe close to 600 rwhp!!!!! I have no idea where though or what tracks he has raced on

STEPHEN

Brad Barber says he's running within 1 second (2:10) of Pierre and Chuck in their M3s at the Glen

600 rwhp doesn't do much if you can't translate that power into quick laptimes.

Track Times
 

My best Time Trial run was 2:16 at the Glen and 1:01 at Lime Rock. I was at The Glen when the fastest time I clocked was Jeff Iafradi at 2:10. This was done with stock motor, stock turbos, stock main cat, running 10-11psi.

I've seen Jeff run at Road Atlanta March 2000 with the BMW CCA Peachtree Chapter...he's a good driver, and his car was trick! He ran in A group giving the Porsche 993 Carrera Club racers fits :cool:

Wohao. Late to the party. I guess CCarlisi was refering to me as the friend with the E36 M3. Well I had owned an RX7 for almost 3 years and enjoyed every moment of it. Quite nostalgic. I then moved to an E36 M3 and its been almost 6.5 years now. Time flies.

Anyways, getting back to the topic (I know Jack Lambert, John Levy, John Eppley, Brad Barber, Jeff Iafrati all personally). Regarding Jeff's times, I was also there at WGI and his official time was actually: 2:13 (http://www.comscc.org/results/wgi_0701.htm

With that setup, he was producing around 300ish to the wheels. Downpipe, M2 Monster IC, PFC exhaust, Ground Control Race suspension, race gas and 285/18 Hoosiers with a Wilwood BB kit. Car must be weighing around 2900lbs.

This setup can be compared to an I Prepared BMWCCA car with the following mods (as per the rule books):

Car weight 2850~ w/o driver, and around 270~HP to the wheels. The wides tires you can fit in those are 255s all the way around. Very comparable cars. Randy Mueller running an IP car ran a 2:10 recorded time. This was on Hoosiers and not slicks and the motor was NA. (www.clubracingstats.org) login: demo password: demo

And for the record, a stock classed M3 with a full interior, 3175lbs and 220hp to the wheels ran a 2:15 at the Glen (Scott Simon). The M3 compared to the RX7 here has a weight and power disadvantage however the fastest stock 7 running on R Comps and track pads get around 2:18s at the Glen.

A fully tricked out M3 with 330hp to the wheels and 2800~lb running slicks runs a 2:04 at the Glen. This again was on a Euro 3.2 NA motor driven by Hyman.

Going back and forth, the RX7 gave you more of a race car fell. When I went to the M3, the E36 benefits from a longer wheelbase, more torque down below (3.2l), stiffer chassis and a solid brake setup.

SleepR1, do you know what Jeff (for times) ran at Road Atlanta?

Hope this helps.

A.L.

I Stock E36 M3 with R Comps, Turner I Stock suspension, intake, exhaust, chip, camber, HT 10s: 1:44 at Road Atlanta
Bone Stock M3 on street tires and stock pads: 2:23 at the glen.
Bone stock M3 with street tires and stock pads: 1:04 at Lime Rock time trial with CARTCT back in 2002.

and a bigger crumple zone which Ahmed has found is very useful at the Glen!!!!