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Drifting 101, the basics and how to get started
Ok, so we have our very own thread on the basics of drifting.
I want all you drift experts to chime in and give me your lessons on drifting. letsGO7 gave it a shot, and so has clayne in this thread. https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...96#post2414696 Looking for Ranzo and other experienced drifters to expound at length on their techniques so those of us who'd like to start the sport of drifting, start off properly, in a SAFE environment (nonpublic roads). I plan to organize my own drift clinics (to keep things safe), and would like as much info as possible. Drift gurus--post away! |
first buy a car you can control, 240's slide themselves while MR2's, fc's and fd's are one of the worst cars you could think of to learn to slide in. they snap back quickly, try to straighten themselves out and have weird ass boost curves/torque curves. they also can't turn nearly as much as a 240 can or as quickly! fd's were ment for grip although if you car good enuf, and have enuf time it is possible to do it. also, note that fixing a 16k FD is gonna be scary compared to a 1-2k fc/240sx (on that note, get a fc to drift over a fd as they react similarly, they are pretty cheap and there is no real loss when you crash one into a wall at 30-60mph). If you do get a FC, make sure to do the spindle mod (apparently with that mod you can get as sideways as 240's can). you need to get some spacers though cuz your wheels will hit the frame with out them.
Then get a hook up for tires and to change them out! (I know guys which can go thru full thread tires in about 5-10 mins! :)) for me, tires usually will last a week but thats cuz I dont do long slides which will eat up your rears and flat spot your fronts super fast and i dont constantly slide (I'm ususally running from spot to spot doing a couple of corners only cuz of the cops haha) for beginners, start in the rain and do the doughnut thing (you know, the nomuken drift lesson thing), uturn, small doughnuts, large doughnuts, then transfer from small to large doughnuts, then figure 8's then choku's then higherspeed of all the above. learn to use ebrake and for god sakes get a spin turn knob, it makes life a hell of a lot more simple haha. learn to turn super fast with 1 hand and also learn to let go of the steering wheel! Also to keep your slides going, don't floor it (unless your really underpowered) you will usually have to pluse your gas pedal. when you first start and keep spinning out, dont worry about it, f*ck the guys which laugh at you, they aren't learning a damn thing and will do the same thing. You will eventually learn how to catch it and keep your slides going if you keep on trying. Then next time you see one of them in a wall or wrapped around a lightpost, you can laugh your ass off at them as you pass :). Even the pros spin out get a roll cage because you may flip, i have seen a car do a foward summersault when drifting! with a safty harness you need a cage and seat, if you got a cage you need a helmet with the helmet you should seriously think about getting a han's type of device to save your neck, in that split second when yoru stopping, that light weight helmet+your head=over 1k lbs oh yeah, rotaries don't have revlimiters... you can't just stand on it like you can a 240sx in the corners. oh yeah, rotaries tend to get hot... get vmount or larger radiator or something cuz it will not survive the constant WOT runs. another mod you might wanna do is to cut more teeth into your steering rack or get a custom one and/or make a hydrolic ebrake (not too hard to do) BTW: Insure that car! You will crash your car if you learn to drift! no ifs ands or buts about it! drift=controlled crash and unless your a pussy and just drift at like iriendel (idk how you spell that place, nor do i care haha) or only in huge ass parking lots with absolutly nothing around but cones. one of the hugest differences you will see in hawaii guys V.S. mainland guys is that Hawaii guys go fast while in HRP (one of the shittiest tracks every fricken made!). HRP is small, has crappy asphault and lots of the corners are only 2 lanes wide. mainland guys only seem to drift in huge lots with cones and they always swing way out, Hawaii guys can probally take the mainland guys on the inside while get sideways! I have yet to see any one in the mainland get sideways anywhere other then in a huge ass empty lot. I dont know a single guy which has not crashed his car when learning to get sideways. yes you are suppose to get good in parking lots and stuff but eventually your gonna wanna go touge and eventually you'll crash! Lastly, just some info from those which have gotten good enuf for touge, if your going up hill, its all power based; if your going down hill, its all e-brake (unless your fricken crazy!) P.S. Stock FD e-brakes are good enuf to get you sideways, you just gotta adjust it a bit as well as use a spin turn knob. I don't even need to brake+ebrake to get it sideways, a quick yank on the ebrake will get me sideways easily. |
i just saw this in the other thread,
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by LetsGO7 maybe you should start with E-brake technique first. It's the MOST basic method. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok describe the e-brake method of drifting? just yank ebrake. BTW: power over is much easier then ebrake (at least for me it was, FD=higher hp car=super easy to get sideways if you blip throttle a little bit) its also a lot easier on your drivetrain quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think people start out by power sliding the corner where you get the car side ways during cornering. After getting the feel of power sliding, maybe you should think about gettting the power slide for a long time (continueing the slide). note, you may need "skip-pad" for this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you mean by power sliding, and holding for a long time? power over or power slide as one of the many techniques you need to learn how to do is just getting on the power and starting your slide with that, its just power induced oversteer. BTW: Anyone that says power sliding isnt drifting is a moron! its just one of the many techniques availble. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- after you learn or get feel of continue-ing the slide and control of getting it back straight, work on the entry. I see FDs and S15s (high HP rating cars use these methods, moded FD is pretty damn high powered car so sleep r1 shouldn't have any problems.)pumping the side-brake during the straight creating an angle initially and pop the clutch to enter the corner side ways, from the apex point i see drivers going back and forth on counter steering. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't follow this at all? you dont need to pump sidebrake, 1 time is good enuf most of the time. just warm up your brakes first. i dont follow "from the apex point i see drivers going back and forth on counter steering." or the beginning point though quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More counter steering (while on the thottle) creates more side way action and drivers lessin the counter steering to gain control (but while under un-control) and counter more to continue the drift longer. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Huh? this i could not really follow, its probally easier to udnerstand while your actually doing it though. obviously you need to turn more to get more sideways as well as keep on the throttle. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But it's not the steering that's doing the drifting it's also footwork. I viewed alot of clutch pop method to help continue the drift. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What's clutch popping? When do you pop the clutch? i think he means clutch kicking where you just keep the gas down and kick the clutch quickly to get it sideways. if you have a low hp car, its one of the techniques you can use to keep the tires spinning alhtough its hell on your clutch quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also on car setups...Tyre choice is weird, Ranzo can give you the know how but i see ovalized tyre setup, where one would use less wider tyre for the wheels, it's like the treads doesn't hit the ground flat but more like how bike tyre would sit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you run really narrow tires on wide wheel rims? Is that it? run narrow tires on wide wheel rims is called streching, VIP guys do it mostly although i see a lot of drift guys doing it as well (drift guys dont put on 185's on a 13 inch tire though haha, yes i have seen this before!) its kinda like running 195 on a 8 inch tire, it streches the bead, i guess they are thinking there is less sidewall flex (thats why you dont run higher then 55 series when you get good, 60 series is good enuf when your getting started though but i would highly recommend you not to run over 60 seires). stretching is ok but up to a certine point (eventually the bead will pop off haha) you know you are pimp when you can fit penny's or nickels between the bead and the rim lip haha!!! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aggressive camber at the front and light on the rear would help the driver to initial the drift while entering. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Negative or positive? WTF??? you dont know? how can you not know? in anycase its neg in the front and netural or more pos in the rear. BTW: how come nobody mentioned camber??? camber will help your wheels straighten itself out automatically, its why you can let go and have the steering wheel recenter itself. Toe as well makes a huge difference! For both, there is a limit. Its not uncommon to see guys running -4 camber in the front! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope this helps Sleep R1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not clear on much of the drifting jargon. More clarity please look up "how to drift" online and read as much as you can about it. most of the terms are common race lingo you should already know! |
Skunks,
Am I a one of those "stupid want to be (wannabees, i don't know the spelling)" guys or is my english writing skills TOTALLY bad? oh man, I feel sorry for Sleep R1 not understanding me. Or feel stupid writing....I hate to mis-write things to others so they get into trouble....maybe it's my understanding.... :( Sorry! |
Also power over maybe easy to do on a FD but I don't think starting out drifter will power over naturally...just like Sleep R1 said on the other thread, he is use to grip type driving so power over isn't a good transition (hard to break old habits), start simple by usnig side-brake (or e-brake) and slowly get into the feel of not getting grip. But also I have seen drifters pulling side brake for different types of bend....so this might be a good time to maybe get the feel of side-brake effect when trying to adjust for different corners....
Okay, i will shut the hell up now. :( -joe :) |
Originally posted by LetsGO7 Also power over maybe easy to do on a FD but I don't think starting out drifter will power over naturally...just like Sleep R1 said on the other thread, he is use to grip type driving so power over isn't a good transition (hard to break old habits), start simple by usnig side-brake (or e-brake) and slowly get into the feel of not getting grip. But also I have seen drifters pulling side brake for different types of bend....so this might be a good time to maybe get the feel of side-brake effect when trying to adjust for different corners.... Okay, i will shut the hell up now. :( -joe :) |
Well no one told me to shut up so i will keep bumping up the thread,
I think sprung clutch should not try the clutch popping (kicking) method. Also if you get into COMP level drifting...clutch kicking is unavoidable. Even if you use the throttle most of the time....I seen some CRAZY LONG bends they drift on. I think it's quicker to get that "smoking" (tyres smokeing like crazy, burning out in motion, hahahaha) effect that judges like. |
oh, if your at the comp level, you gotta clutch kick for different corners, this thread is for beginners though, guys which obviously dont got enuf money for the expensive stuff just yet, and/or dont need it.
BTW: Ususally i see guys using ebrake for long slides. kinda like that orange fd im sure eveyrone has seen (marrionette guy was driving that FD btw) |
wow you know marrionette! Masatoshi pumps the side brake like crazy!
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Originally posted by skunks WTF??? you dont know? how can you not know? in anycase its neg in the front and netural or more pos in the rear |
Originally posted by LetsGO7 oh man, I feel sorry for Sleep R1 not understanding me. Or feel stupid writing....I hate to mis-write things to others so they get into trouble....maybe it's my understanding.... |
skunks:
I plan to start small like Ranzo suggested in the other thread. Large parking lot, one cone--circles, two cones--figure-8s. Eventually I want to take the drifting technique to one of my open-track road course events. I need to develop my drivers to the point they will control their cars so well, they will not go off-track. Public road drifting is not smart, and UNSAFE. With regard to the cars, I have a heavily modded FD3S, and it's not very hard to "power slide" in 1st gear with only 11 psi of boost LOL. I run 9 x 17s all around with 255/40-17 tires. It's set up for grip driving, but I don't intend to change anything on the car. The only changes will be my driving technique. I'm looking to expand my sports car driving technique, and I can't think of a more difficult form of motorsports than drifting--because of the absolute control you must have over the car, while purposefully sliding around turns. I want to provide an outlet for my younger members to develop and explore their drivng capabilities in a safe, controlled environment. |
I pasted Ranzo's comments from the other thread below. It's a nice primer for getting started in the motorsport of drifting...
Originally posted by Ranzo Since you alread have good car control it should be pretty easy to get going. What i recommend to people is to find a skidpad, parking lot or somewhere and put one cone in the middle and then start doing donuts around the cone. Find a point on the fender and try to keep the cone at that pont while going in circles around it. This will give you feel for the steer counter steer and some throttle control because if you give to much gas it will spin and so on..... When you get good at that start going wider and wider and that will be the beginning of a drift. Then try changing directions going the opposite way you were going. After that put up two cones a good distance apart and do figure eights around the cones keeping the back wheels spinning with a good angle through the hole process. This will force you to learn the throttle on and off response for changing directions while in motion. If this is easy for you find a small corner and try getting the drift going around the corner. You can star it with a clutch kick or the side brake but the best way is to quickly turn the wheel in to the turn while applying ever increasing throttle unitil the ass end comes out and then just work with the throttle and steering wheel to maintain the line. The line and for Grip is not that different Kind of think of the nose of the car is the point of the line and the back of the car is outside the line...because you are sideways. The line will be further to the outside due to the fact that that trying to keep it sideways and the tires spinning will kind of cause the car to drive to the bottom of the track. This is where the footwork comes in and the approprite speed for each corner....if you go to fast it will go way to the outside or spin if too slow it will want to drive to the inside. There is much more detailed things that people use but this is a good start. |
where hell is the quoting button? oh well...
Sleep R1 writes [quote] This is what I figured; common sense tells me negative helps the car be more "on-camber" through the turn, while positive camber induces the car to be "off-camber" through the turn, taking away traction, and helping to slide the car. //[quote] this is true but YOU DO NOT want to put positive camber in anyway! Why? yes, it's true that you are getting the traction out while drifting but it is YOU that is getting the car drifting not the car. So the idea wanting on the car would be help the driver in drifting but always gain grip when it's told. IMO that is... -joe |
okay the quote thing didn't work....damn
:( |
do you have any stock rims? usually guys dont run higher then 215mm's and you can easily run taht on a stock 8 inch rim although it does stretch jsut a little bit.
Later, when your better and you need more grip in the rear, then upgrade to like k225-235 in the rear. just remember, wider tire=need more power as well as money to buy tires :). also, a heavily modded FD is much harder to control then a stock 240sx with only 130rwhp. your throttle control must be that much more percise. you can buy longer throttle cable things which give you more of a range but still, its hard to control a car with so much hp. i which i had only 130rwhp some times, its fun to beable to just stand on the throttle thru an entire turn and have the car drift itself thru the turn (240's own!) on another note, i noticed that FD's have a fairly craptastic rev range as far as beginner drift is concerned, if there was a 1.5 gear where the power range/mph would be between 20-50mph, it would be great but as far as fd's are concerned, we dont got enuf torque down low in 2nd gear and we easily run out of rev's in 1st gear. when you get good, 2nd gear is good as your gonna probally start your slides at about 50-60mph, then you will be in your optimum rev range. BTW: On most FD's i have seen (in the D1 varaity) they ususally stay in 2nd gear and occationaly get up to 3rd gear... which should mean beginners should never get out of 1st gear. |
Originally posted by skunks do you have any stock rims? usually guys dont run higher then 215mm's and you can easily run taht on a stock 8 inch rim although it does stretch jsut a little bit. Later, when your better and you need more grip in the rear, then upgrade to like k225-235 in the rear. just remember, wider tire=need more power as well as money to buy tires :). also, a heavily modded FD is much harder to control then a stock 240sx with only 130rwhp. your throttle control must be that much more percise. you can buy longer throttle cable things which give you more of a range but still, its hard to control a car with so much hp. i which i had only 130rwhp some times, its fun to beable to just stand on the throttle thru an entire turn and have the car drift itself thru the turn (240's own!) on another note, i noticed that FD's have a fairly craptastic rev range as far as beginner drift is concerned, if there was a 1.5 gear where the power range/mph would be between 20-50mph, it would be great but as far as fd's are concerned, we dont got enuf torque down low in 2nd gear and we easily run out of rev's in 1st gear. when you get good, 2nd gear is good as your gonna probally start your slides at about 50-60mph, then you will be in your optimum rev range...on most FD's i have seen (in the D1 varaity) they ususally stay in 2nd gear and occationaly get up to 3rd gear... which should mean beginners should never get out of 1st gear. My plan is to do wet skid pad drifting practice, and use wet track conditions to practice drifting. During wet track, hardly anyone goes out, so that's the time to slide the car around ;) Wet asphalt conditions will make things easier on tires, and decrease speeds, while requiring the same skills for drifting. No this isn't drifting for exhibition, but my point is for drivers to learn car control FIRST :) |
Ok man there is a lot of information in here already. This is good information!! However I disagree with some of it. I don't want to slam on anybody because everyones techniques are different and that is ususally derived from experience but nevertheless I must say what I think.
The 240sx Sylvia cars: I don't understand why everyone thinks they will turn sharper than a FC or FD!! In pure stock form a FC has more angle than the nissans. I speak for the FC because that is what I drive and have the most experience in. I have compared this with friends cars and so on. The limited turn angles fo the nissans would explain the HUGE aftermarket of parts to enhance thier abilities. Do not base how to drift or if you should drift or not based on the car you drive. I have seen KP starlets.......hach roku trucks....Supra trucks.....Front wheel drive Civics and anything under the sun drift in competition. Granted some cars are better than others like the nissan platforms........they are much more forgiving and would be good for a beginner. I agree that the FC is twitchy by nature......EXACTLY like a hach rouku.......yet everyone says the hachi is one of the best drift cars in the world.......hahah They are pieces of shit in reality and thats why people drifted them back in the day. The fact that Keichi owned one and so on has helped keep that history alive today. Everyone here should already own an RX-7 so I would rather focus on drifting and RX-7 and some of the problems or situations that occur in these cars. OK E-Brake: My ebrake does not work I have yet to figure out what the problem is yet and I am looking at rebuilding or replacing by rear calipers and changing the wires. However I have learned to do Gymkhana and every other kind of Drift race whatever without a Ebrake. For a beginner the only time I would see wanting a ebrake is when you initiate a drift. The control that you can add with a Ebrake is helpful if you know how to use it but this will take time and practice to understand. I reccomend staying away from that ebrake handle as much as possible. You can do much more accurate control with the foot brake especially going down hill at Touge. I would like a better ebrake to initiate a drift going downhill but I can do it fine by going a little slower in the beginning and accelerate hard from a wide angle (other side of the road) and turn into the corner. Tires People talk about burning a set of tires up in minutes??? If I have old tires or used tires then I can burn them up at touge in about an hour or so........the track they will last different depending on lots of factors. If you are using tires in minutes then for most people you are over accelerating and your actual forward motion speed will be slow. I had this problem somewhat until about last year and I learned that using more accurate steering inputs and moving the cars weight to carry it into transistions works better and looks cleaner. This will save you money as well!!! Another thing I noticed nobody has mentioned is Tire sizing. I hear alot of guys saying get some 16" wheels and what we call in Japan "unko" tires.....quite literally "Shit" tires. This will work if you have an underpowered car like a nissan Laurel with a RB20 or a Hachi Roku. This works well for beginners because the rear end will slide easier and as I mentioned before your forward speed will have to be slower because of no traction and wheel spin. All that being fine and good I want to mention "hiparri" or stretching tires on Rims. There is a reason this is done. The large sidewall on SleepR1's car will not drift nicely. They have good grip but when they break free it will be sudden and when they regain traction it will be sudden. A streched tire makes for a small shoulder and lots of rigidity that transforms into a fluid controlable drift on the track. I notcie it in my FC alot with the back tires......If I use a 245/55 17 then I need more intial power to break it free and the initial jolt of the rear end coming out causes minor corrections that take away from the drift. Then on transisiton...... from left to right and so in the car will rock back and forth as the weigh transfers from one side to the other and the car gets traction. Also the thing about driftin is that it is not a doughnut all four wheels are moving in a line with angle and the front tires must slide as well a large sidewall on the front will cause the front to bite and this will cause you to spin much easier. Finally Clutch Kicking: If you own a FC or FD and running on relatively small courses you should not need to clutch kick very often. This depends alot on the type of surface the track has. RX-7 missions are very strong so if you get a good clutch.....I would reccomend a Super Single or Twin Plate ......... then you should be able to use the clutch without worry for a long time. A lot of people clutch kick like they kicking a field goal from the 50 yard line. I find that finesse pays off in the long run and will require less counter steer and corrections to maintain the line. My car has roughly 360hp and use a OSGiken Twin If I clutch kick/pop to hard I will spin or the ass end will hit a wall or something on the other side of the track/road. As much as I used to hate on him......Taniguchi is a superb driver. If you get a chance watch the in car shots of him........he is relaxed and his hands are not all over the car. His line is always good and his speed is extremely fast. He dosen't always have the angle of other drivers but then again that is not his style. Some drivers like Ueo for example have a lot of steering inputs and use left foot braking. This is also due to his style and probably required to control a 185hp Hachi Roku well enough to beat down a 500HP FD. The point of this is that your attitude and personality will come out in your driving so you will have to try things and see what works best for you. Remember the more aggressive you attack a corner the more aggressivley you will have to counter to maintain the line. |
what is a hach roku truck. any pictures?
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use wet track for only doughnut practice and figure 8, everything else should be in the dry, wet is sucky for beginner cuz its too slippery most times.
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Originally posted by Ranzo The 240sx Sylvia cars: I don't understand why everyone thinks they will turn sharper than a FC or FD!! In pure stock form a FC has more angle than the nissans. this aint right, at least from what i have seen. OK E-Brake: My ebrake does not work I have yet to figure out what the problem is yet and I am looking at rebuilding or replacing by rear calipers and changing the wires. However I have learned to do Gymkhana and every other kind of Drift race whatever without a Ebrake. For a beginner the only time I would see wanting a ebrake is when you initiate a drift. The control that you can add with a Ebrake is helpful if you know how to use it but this will take time and practice to understand. I reccomend staying away from that ebrake handle as much as possible. You can do much more accurate control with the foot brake especially going down hill at Touge. I would like a better ebrake to initiate a drift going downhill but I can do it fine by going a little slower in the beginning and accelerate hard from a wide angle (other side of the road) and turn into the corner. some times you need ebrake, especially for off camber turns and tight Uturns! there is simply no other way some times Tires People talk about burning a set of tires up in minutes??? If I have old tires or used tires then I can burn them up at touge in about an hour or so........the track they will last different depending on lots of factors. If you are using tires in minutes then for most people you are over accelerating and your actual forward motion speed will be slow. well the track we have here is super crappy! HRP sucks ass. Your lucky that you got tracks in japan which you can use the same tires here for an hour which would usually last only 5-10 mins here. also guys here are pulling chokus done the quarter mile fairly fast (which i dont seem to see guys in the mainland doing) and then comming in to the highspeed uturn at about 70mph :) then they continue to pull chokus all the way back down the back way in to the short course here Another thing I noticed nobody has mentioned is Tire sizing. I hear alot of guys saying get some 16" wheels and what we call in Japan "unko" tires.....quite literally "Shit" tires. This will work if you have an underpowered car like a nissan Laurel with a RB20 or a Hachi Roku. 16's on a hachi??? wow I never seen anyone run those unless they are doing it up VIP style! Finally Clutch Kicking: If you own a FC or FD and running on relatively small courses you should not need to clutch kick very often. This depends alot on the type of surface the track has. RX-7 missions are very strong so if you get a good clutch fd trannies are not that strong... As much as I used to hate on him......Taniguchi is a superb driver. If you get a chance watch the in car shots of him........he is relaxed and his hands are not all over the car. His line is always good and his speed is extremely fast. He dosen't always have the angle of other drivers but then again that is not his style. Some drivers like Ueo for example have a lot of steering inputs and use left foot braking. This is also due to his style and probably required to control a 185hp Hachi Roku well enough to beat down a 500HP FD. The point of this is that your attitude and personality will come out in your driving so you will have to try things and see what works best for you. Remember the more aggressive you attack a corner the more aggressivley you will have to counter to maintain the line. so true, most of the guys which are good which i have driven with hardly ever touch the steering wheel, its really amazing how much steering they get done with so little effort. |
Originally posted by SleepR1 No, right now I have one set of wheels/tires on the car. You really gotta get more rims, espeically cuz you will likely kill the set your drifting on. also, if/when you pop your tires, how the heck are you gonna get home? I know a guy which forgot a spare when he went to tantlus, a local mountain which is a favorite because of its turn, and popped a tire, he had to drive back on the highway for about 30 miles to his house on his popped tire at about 35mph :D :eek: you should have seen his rim! In anycase, he has tons of rims as he drifts his camaro and those rims are cheap and easy to find. I highly suggest to you to get a set or couple of sets of stock fd rims, they are super light weight and can fit from 205-245 tires on them easily. while your at it, dont drift your fd and buy a FC, hell fd rims cost as much as a running FC :D :D FD stuff cost a lot to fix! oh yeah buy or dl drift bible, its a pretty good vid althoguh u gotta be super good to use his braking technique. BTW: sleepR1, what kinda mods you got on your car? P.S. Please remember you will crash or may even flip your car... just remember this i mean look at calvin... and he was in a friggen huge ass empty track!!! |
what is a hach roku truck. any pictures? The 240sx Sylvia cars: I don't understand why everyone thinks they will turn sharper than a FC or FD!! In pure stock form a FC has more angle than the nissans. this aint right, at least from what i have seen. 16's on a hachi??? wow I never seen anyone run those unless they are doing it up VIP style! :( |
Originally posted by skunks BTW: sleepR1, what kinda mods you got on your car? |
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