Contemplating a new race car...
 

Ok so we finished up the FC and used it for the Hillclimb and its currently being setup with an FD motor/intake/single turbo to yeild about 500whp and quick spool then lowered back down on the mat and set up for track/autocross with NASA, SCCA, etc. as a rental car along with the 944 SPEC car.
pics:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...r/IMG_3318.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...r/IMG_3308.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...r/IMG_3312.jpg

And the 1973 911 wearing 993 bodywork that is getting its engine put together and then the car will be re-assembled for racing with PCA, NASA, HSR, etc.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c.../892d_12-1.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c.../8cab_12-1.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...0/IMG_2171.jpg


So we have been kicking around the idea of a new car, and I like the idea of another rotary racer. There really is no attractive option in any form of PRO racing, as only the RX8 is currently legal and Im not a fan. Add in that while they are competetive in GRAND-AM I think they would get thier asses kicked in Speed World Challenge where I would rather run. Since it will be at least 2012 before the next RX7 will be released, it looks like no PRO racing in a 7until at least then. Well thats OK, SCCA/NASA Club Racing is fine. Unfortunately SCCA hates turbo cars, and they are not allowed in any form in GT 1/2/3/Lite. Sucksas.
Soo what to do? hmmmm
Well here are my current thoughts- please feel free to provide input-

After reading through BigAl and pals build threads I am going tube frame and use the MazdaSpeed/Downing body. This is just a lot easier, cheaper, and faster. There just seems to be a ton of work needed to get a tub car RX7 down to fighting weight after you add in all the bits needed for safety and to stiffen the chassis. As I said I have watched the other fellows build threads fairly intently and everything I have seen tells me to go tube frame! The drawback of course if the body, only the MazdaSpeed body is approved in GT2 and it is 7K. I could *maybe* pull a set of molds from a stock car and use GT300 panels to come up with a proper GT body, but that just seems expensive and time consuming for little reward. Also would then have to get SCCA to approve it, which could be an issue in and of itself.
Powerplants are always up in the air until its bolted in the car, but it looks like for SCCA GT2 I can use a 13B P-port and weigh 1700lbs and use a 20B and weigh slightly more. I like the 13B option because its easier for me to deal with and it is cheaper and easier to find bits for. To be competetive regionally in GT2 weighing 1700lbs I am fairly sure the car would need to make roughly 350whp, which I am not sure is even possible with a 13B N/A P-ported or not.
Definitely using a racing gearbox, probably a Saenz, although as I read the rules the TT 6-speed is not legal in GT2 the 4 and 5 speeds are.
Suspension will be fabbed 4130 control arms front and rear, 9-inch indie diff (cheaper than the Cobra R and probably more stuff out there for it) using OEM uprights and custom axles/flanges, and Ohlins or Penske dampers.

Lots more details to hash out, but these are the lines I am thinking along. Thoughts?

I think you're reading the GTS body allowance wrong. You can make your own bodywork for a GT 2 car, they just don't want other cars asking for the GTS bodywork to be allowed. I would go the 'make your own' route for the body. There isn't any special hoops to jump through as long as it fits the letter of the rules when you get to the track. SCCA national doesn't need to give any kind of approval.

Well making my own is appealing, and it is certianly cheaper than buying the downing stuff. I guess I will take some measurements off the two FD's we have on hand and see what can be "pushed" here and there.

If you are looking into an FD, there are bodies out there. I have a friend that runs one in GT2 down here in Fl, I can find out where he got his body. There used to be a guy in Tampa that was making them but I don't know what happened to those molds. The bodies where just over $3K back in the 90's.

Would be really appreciatted if you can come up with something!

The company name was Creative Motorsport, owner was Teddy Kempgen. I have not heard anything from him in years. I'll make some calls tomorrow.

May not be what your looking for but you might consider running a Spec 7 (1st gen crabed RX-7 regional SCCA class) havnt much looked into NASA but the car came with a NASA log book as well so would assume it can run with them as well and at most SCCA events latley weve been getting anywhere from 5-10 entries (in compairson SM has been getting 2-4 more cars an event). Cheap, competive and fun :)

Dbl post....

I like SPEC7 and have been looking to add one or more to the rental fleet. In building a new car however we are thinking a GT class. Honestly I would prefer to put an effort together and run a car with a good driver in a PRO series Like SWCGT or Rolex Cup, buuut lets take an honest look at that-

In Rolex the costs are not terrible for the car itself, but since it is endurance racing the costs of spares, crew, consumables, and having to virtually rebuild the car between each round means the car chosen needs to make sense. The RX8 using the 20B means cheaper spares and maintenance costs than the Camaro or Porsche, but I dont like the look of the car even as a race car. BMW is an alternative, but has reliability issues (and is expensive with little real OEM support). I HAVE seriously given thought to the 350Z Nissan, but unfortunately the motor program alone makes it unrealistic unless either Nissan themselves got involved or a backer with huge pockets mysteriously appeared, neither of which are likely to happen.

SWCGT would be prefered, but currently to run anywhere near mid-pack you will spend 120K or more on the car. Without serious badgering the RX8 will get its ass kicked, because I doubt in a serious way the 20B would be allowed, and even if it was you would be facing 3R's 600AWHP AWD Volvo with Randy Pobst driving it, a fleet of very developed GT3 Cup cars, and of course the Vettes/Mustangs/ etc. with minimum HP outputs around 500whp. Yeah, unless ProRacing let the RX8 weigh significantly less and allowed the 20B P-ported with a lot of trick stuff its going to get its ass kicked. Probably why no one runs one there. Once again a Nissan has been considered, but the reality is that everyone wants to try and field a GTR, which simply hasnt happened because Nissan is not involved and developing a techno-freak like the GTR into a race car costs a lot of dollars. I have heard rumors of GTR "teams" putting cars together but havent seen a single car entered in a race.

I have looked at Speed World Challenge Touring, but honestly the current cars just do not excite me much at all. Had considered a Subaru LGT or WRX but decided against it.

So, back to Club Racing, at least until the next RX7 comes out, whenever that may be. I think at 1700-ish lbs with a P-port 13b or maybe a 20b the 7 has a fighting chance against the Porsches etc here locally, maybe even Nationally with the right driver.
Sidenote, I rarely drive racecars these days, just build them, set them up, and run them. There are a lot of better drivers than myself that can win in the cars I build.

Is that a lexan windshield on the FC?

I wish! The rules we just ran the car under did not allow for a plastic windsheild, so we still have glass front and rear. This might change in the near future depending on how light we can be.

I think some companies sell thinned glass. My z06 has race glass from the factory, I guess it's slightly thinner than OEM c5 glass which drops a few lbs.

I would like to audition as said driver, Also can you pm an address and phone number for yall. I ran the southwest formula mazda series for 2 years and was circuit grand bayou formula champion in 08-09. If anything I would like to come see your shop and see about getting a cage in my RX7 to continue running NASA and Redline Time Attack. Also would be interested in possibly renting a car for an SCCA event to keep my National liscence current

Thanks Jeremy

You'll save about 20 lbs going to 1/4" lexan from the stock glass. The best part is being able to pull the windshield out with a few bolts and work on the dash area of the car.

I called one friend that will be at the track with the guy that runs the FD this weekend. The only info the guy I called had was that the FD body was $10K installed. The tube frame was an FB in a past life. It sounds like its the Downing stuff hung on the car but I'll know for sure this weekend.

I also put some feelers out to find Teddy. I will probably end up calling Amos Johnson, he used to store one of his AMX's at Teddy's shop.

I suspect you've seen 7's Only Racing website. You might be able to source a body from them or their supplier. Also you could contact some of the NASPORT drivers who run tubed frame GT-2 FDs for supplier information.

Best,

Guy

PM on the way


THANKS! I am going to contact Japco (yes, I know they are someone else now) as well as GT Racing (they make Porsche FG panels down in the Springs) and see if they have any interest in doing these, and if not I will just have my own body molds made. Its just a lot easier to buy sometimes yanno?

And yes I am aware how much Lexan will help. With the car weighing only 2200lbs as-is and making north of 400whp I am thinking NASA will want more weight added to race with them, SCCA will only allow the car at "time trials", and I am not sure I can make any arguement for it as a "vintage" racer.

Hi Guy-

I actually have not see thier website but have wandered over there, thanks for the heads up.

cheers,
Don

I worked with WC as an Official on field staff for eight or nine years, it's nice to hear from someone show is passionate about the series these days! Anyhow, I spoke with Dave Drimmie and the Vision team about wanting to introduce an 8 to the series, and they made room in touring car. Thing is we want to use our Mandeville PP 3-rotor and run in GT. They're hurting for entries these days and cutting entry fees but I think we're going to wait until we see what their schedule and package looks like for next season.

An 8 in SWTC might have a fighting chance, assuming they let you weigh a reasonable amount and allow the car to either be turbocharged (they have done this before) or the use of the 20B. Personally in Touring I would want the 13B running a single turbo and accept a restrictor over a 20B p-port. Your battle in doing this is Mazda in more invested in seeing the Mazda 3/Protege platform out there doing well in Touring than seeing the RX8 do well, so expect limited if any factory support in bucking for more favorable rules.
You might have better "luck" in SWCGT where Mazda has no presence, but you would again need the car to either have a ridiculous 20B P-port AND the car be the lightest in the field OR the 13B turbo and be one of the lightest in the field. You would need to put SCCA ProRacing together a packet with actual dyno sheets (preferably from a known and reputable engine developer) both eengine dyno and chassis, a very detailed engine spec sheet including turbo you plan to use, port information, boost level, etc. and hope they allow the change of the VTS.

Dont get me wrong, I think the RX8 COULD be a legitimate competitor in SWCGT or Touring Car, but it will take a fair amount of lobbying to get it there.

There have been FDs running in SWCGT. (2004,2005?) I don't know what turbo set up was used as I haven't found the VTS yet. I would like to see the VTS so I can use the same set up for National STO racing.

Guy

It was the Petit (sp?) FD, ran while I was working for one year. The car was leased from Petit if I remember correctly.

Yes, a white FD I recall from video.

Guy

It did pretty well at Mid-Ohio this weekend:

http://www.world-challenge.com/news/...php?story=1792

-b

I've had the same thoughts, a tube chassis and an RX-7 body. I bought a Blister widebody kit off Ebay and we're going to pull a roof / hatch mold off a stock FD. My goal with the body is to make it a three part unit, a front section, the roof and cabin section (which contains the side skirts and a removable rear section. Doors as well, of course. When we've got it all sorted, take a mold for each of the sections so we can reproduce the bodies fairly easily (racing can be hard on the fiberglass parts ;-) ).

The chassis plan is to start with a straight FD chassis, lift it on the hoist, strip the suspension and set it down (aligned properly with the jig) on 4" spacers on the frame jig. bolt up tubing to the stock suspension mounting points and then weld the tubing bits to removable suspension jigs that bolt off the frame jig. When completed, unbolt the stock chassis, lift it out of the way and then start building the tube chassis with the spacers removed. The result is stock FD suspension geometry only four inches lower and in a tube chassis. My goal is a sub-2000 lbs FD with at least 450 rwhp and Yokohama 280/650/18 slicks up front and 320/650/18 slicks out back. Longer-term, start fabbing the stock suspension bits out of tubing to cut the weight further and increase the adjustability.

I think it is going to be three or more years before I complete the car though as work and time don't allow for a fast build.

regards,
-Trent

^^^ Sounds cool :icon_tup:

Yes, this is looking like the route I am going as well. I have looked into several options, including the Sevens Only body (doesnt look "right" to me), The Downing/Mazdaspeed body (not terribly expensive, I am sure the aero work is top notch, buuut there are some changes I wold like to make) and building my own. My "plan" is similar to yours, only I am looking to use a JGTC GT300 body "kit" as my starting point. Looking to do this to take advantage of changes in SCCA rules which allow for better cooling, better aero, and of course maximize track width etc. The Mazdaspeed body is very nice but was built to meet the IMSA GTS-2 rule package. I have a very straight never wrecked FD here to pull the molds off of, and have checked into having a couple of composite parts manufacturers make the bodies for me. The problem (obviously) is that even if I put them out on the market there are maybe 3 or 4 guys who would buy a set over the next few years, so it is not practical to even approach a maufacturer knowing this. So more than likely we would make the molds in-house and store them for use as needed. Another long-shot option is that if there was enough interest before I actually build the molds a "club" sort of thing could be worked out where several body molds and perhaps chassis were made at the same time, which dramatically cuts costs.

I think your sort of on the wrong track with this. Using FD suspension components and geometry is cool, but it will be far easier and cheaper in a tube car to simply use all fabricated and racing components. for example, here is the list of components I am likely so use:

FNT SUSP
Upright- fabricated steel
Hub- modified Winters
A-arms- fabricated 4130
Coleman or Sweet power steering rack
Fabricated steering shaft
tilton pedal assm
Wilwood brake calipers
Coleman rotors
Ohlin or Penske dampers
Fabricated blade sway bar



Rear Susp-

EITHER:
Fabricated 9" housing, cambered tubes
4-link

OR
Fabricated 9" housing, independent suspension
Fabricated axles
Fabricated steel uprights
Corvette C5 or similar Hubs
fabricated control arms

AND
Ohlin or Penske Dampers
fabricated blade sway bar
Wilwood brake calipers
Coleman rotors


These parts are not nec cheaper initially but they are purpose built for racing. Having to modify each and every OEM component you need will quickly add up in time and dollars spent.

It may be that once the chassis is built and jigged it could be made available for sale to others who wish to build up and run thier own GT class or trackday RX7. I know Sevens Only already does this, but its nice to have options.