I'm attempting to tune, can't get enough fuel in boost area past 12psi, high RPM. MAP
 

Mods

Small/Medium Steet Port
850/1600 cc
HKS Twin Power
9;s all around
New ECU and Coil Harness
AF61r Turbo
Apexi GT Intercooler

Methanol TURNED OFF.

My tune was originally made for methanol injection, now I am trying to make the map for pump only. I've been able to do it up to P13, but once I press past that.. I start to lean out. I've had to add a crapload of fuel, and I decided to turn my boost controller off (limiting to spring, at 12psi) this way I don't run into that lean area. For some reason, I can't get the right amount of fuel.

P10 - 0, 0 - 14.5AFR
P11 - 2.9392psi, 2.8432psi - 13.6AFR
P12 - 5.8784psi, 5.6864psi - 12.7AFR
P13 - 8.8175psi, 8.5296psi - 11.9AFR
P14 - 11.7568psi, 11.3728psi - 11.3AFR
P15 - 14.696psi, 14.216psi - 11.1AFR
P16 - 17.6352psi, 17.0592psi - 10.8

That is BAR / kg/cm² - I am not sure which the PFC uses, but that is what I am shooting for.

The datalogit and wideband are hooked up and log on my laptop, once I cross into the N14 (5400RPM) in P14/15 area... it starts to lean out bad. If you look at hte map, you'll see that it's leaned out.. due to the methanol tune (which is no longer there).

Wondering if someone can help me richen it out, and help me understand where it should be so I can LEARN! I've been able to take the methanol out of P13 and 14, but I can't get past 12psi without breakup, hesitation, in the high RPM areas.

The map is attached, any help would be appreciated!!

Thanks
-Darren-

Also, 3 bar map sensor...

I also upped the boost limit in the PFC to max, rather than the .80, .70 it was set at before.

Also.. it's a COSMO pump.

Darren

Are these the actual values you recorded?

P10 - 0, 0 - 14.5AFR
P11 - 2.9392psi, 2.8432psi - 13.6AFR
P12 - 5.8784psi, 5.6864psi - 12.7AFR
P13 - 8.8175psi, 8.5296psi - 11.9AFR
P14 - 11.7568psi, 11.3728psi - 11.3AFR
P15 - 14.696psi, 14.216psi - 11.1AFR
P16 - 17.6352psi, 17.0592psi - 10.8

If so you are getting richer as your boost increases.

Those are what the values SHOULD BE... that is what I am shooting for.

As far as my understanding on boost and fuel goes... those values should be safe and not too rich.

Are you adjusting your injector map (correction) or base map?

I performed a recalc on your base map and the change in fuel from P13 to P14 is any where from 20% to near 60%. The seems extremely high to me, I would think you only need around 5% more fuel for a pound of boost.

Darren,

Your base fuel map numbers seem very high. I have not seen maps with values in the 30s at those boost levels. I have a 35r map, stock map sensor with 850s and 1300cc, if you'd like to look at it. I also have a T04 map with 550s and 1600cc.

I copied the fuel area from my T78 (from P12 and up...). I've also changed the injector overlap to 7,7,4, and the size from 1600 to 1680cc. The Injectors are now set at .06 and .45, and the transision % is 40.00 with a time of .768ms.

I'll keep my foot off the boost and maybe this will smooth it out a bit. Here is the current map, throw me some input. I had some help with these adjustments... but I changed the fuel map from my old setup... I added a bit more fuel than it had.. as long as I watch the WB, I should be ok.

Have you looked at the fuel injector duty cycle in the logs, if it is going up as the rpms increase and you are going lean still then perhaps you are running out of pump. Post up some logs of this lean condition.

Here you go...

This is the methanol map, untouched. Plus my log, without methanol running through it. You can see where the map leans out to make room for methanol. Be sure to check out my P/N settings since they are adjusted for the 3 bar map sensor.

Ok, does anyone with some experience wanna crawl out of the cave? Why does tuning have to be such a big secret... very few are willing to share experience. I don't care to make money off it, I just want to be able to tune my damn car, lol.

As of right now, I do not have the resources to teach myself.. otherwise I would. Any help would be great.

Most are probably concerned about hurting someone's motor if folks misinterpret their advice or misapply their maps. Some want to be paid, it's understandable. I'll look at your log tonite and reply back to this thread if no one else has by tonite.

I appreciate it. But I understand that I cannot hold anyone responsible for letting me use a map or changes they provide without doing them theirself. This is why tuners require a waiver of liability to be signed. =P

You still haven't been able to add enough fuel?

If you've really added a butt load more fuel (like 20% more just to test) and the AFR's haven't budged then I'd drop the lag on the 1600's. Move it closer to 0.00 in small increments (like 0.07 at a time), retesting after each change. Everytime you move it you'll get more fuel whenever the 1600's are on-line. You'll might have some rich rows before the alcohol was scheduled to come on-line since that area will be seeing more fuel too.

BAH

I remapped my fuel map using excel, here is the current map. I have yet to try it out.

I will take a look at your maps tomorrow at work as I don't have my laptop with me and see if I can offer you any help.

Without knowing the settings on the wideband it's tough to be confident converting the wb voltage to an AFR. Your map settings are also a bit wacky, 96 degF fan temp settings and negative lag on the secondaries makes no sense.

The injector duty cycle seems to be jumping quite fast but the log is truncated and there are several partial throttle runs in the log making it difficult to interpret. If you can straighten up the lag values, get the car to make more of a complete run, datalog just the run and no other junk data, and let us know the wb parameters to convert volts to afr it would help. FWIW, I run less timing than you at peak torque on a ported motor.

This negative lag deal... I have othre maps from previous setups, and they had 'positive lag' - what exactly does this do?

Ok read the FC Edit manual, I need to adjust the lag time apparantly =P

The larger the lag the richer the injectors run, the smaller the leaner.
Negative lag is only used for large primary injectors to lean out the idle area when the ECU will not let you reduce fuel in the maps.

Setting injector size larger than it is will cause it to run leaner.
Setting injector size smaller than it is will cause it to run richer.
Changing your injectors from 1600 to 1680 will lean them out.

Looking at you first two maps for a PIM of 20000, I am running more fuel than you with my almost stock port GT35R.

You need to verify your fuel pressure from 0 psi boost up to your test area.
FP = (0 boost base fuel pressure) + boost level.
If my base FP is 40psi, at 15psi boost, my FP should = (40 + 15) = 55psi.

If not you FP regulator is not working correctly or you pump is too small.

Fuel pressure is fine. I remember seeing it when the car was on the dyno awhile ago.

Pump is good for 500hp.. and currently I am not even near that. The pump works just fine and is wired for a constant 13.5vdc so it runs on high rather than switching voltage cycles.

The car works fine on methanol, but like I said... I am trying to work the methanol out of the system.

CEWRX7 you're making assumptions about my setup, when everything is setup properly and in working order, this I am sure of. The tune is the issue, not my system.

The injectors are teal/blue so they are 1680cc, yet I have them set as 1600cc. The pump is a cosmo aka supra tt pump, base pressure is 40psi, primaries are 850cc, all fuel lines are steel with a/n fittings.

PIM 20000 (P15 - 14.696psi, 14.216psi - 11.1AFR) depending on kg/cm^2 or bar.

That is an untuned area for fuel... so, I haven't added fuel there yet. That is why it is lean, and that is why I am here posting.

Look at the last map i posted (3.28.06) and you'll see the changes I made. Let me know how that differs from your setup.

Thanks for the help, don't mean to sound disrespectful. I appreciate it!

-Darren-

For your (3.28.06) map; you are running 30% more base fuel ms for your (P15,N15) which is my (P18,N15). At that boost my AFRs are in the 11.2+-1 range.

I run 550/1600 with the Nippon upgraded pump at 13.8 volts with the FP speed relay still functional. My base FP pressure is 40psi.
My injector overlap is 7,7,4.

My primary/secondary injector transition is 30% with .1 ms.
These last two were derived after logging and analyzing the ADVANCE
INJ FRT PRI/SEC injector values with the chart feature.

Now my secondary injectors come on very smoothly.

Correction, my fuel pressure is 35psi. A friend explained it to me.. injector lag etc. He told me that the power fc reaches a point where you cannot add or remove more fuel.. so the base map could be 0.00 and it wouldn't change. The only way to add or remove fuel past that point is to change the injector lag.

When i get the transision to secondaries, it stutters... and it's leaning out up top.. (with the 3.28.06 map) - so i am going ot change the injector lag and see if i can get more fuel top end.

This is a PITA without a dyno =*(

I've gone over your maps several times and can't find anything that looks way out of place, but you still have room to add more fuel. I think you are on the right track with Chuck's suggestion with the injector lag.

I would also double check your Wideband calibration. In your log with the settings you sent me, I am seeing some strange feedback. My wideband (LC1) hooked to my datalogit and wideband on our dynojet never reads 20's even off throttle. If you have the ability to narrow the range, you will get more accurate results. Also you need to have more than one sample per cell to get a true reading. Many of the cells you are talking about were single samples.

Hope this helps,
Dan