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Yes, S is the thickest spacer on the list. The link that I posted above will lead you straight to the parts you need. You mentioned that you have the bolt, do you have the thermostat and spring, too? If not, don't forget them or if you choose to delete them, then get the plug.
Your rear counterweight is most likely damaged from thrust which will make it impossible to set the end play properly. I'm just saying the potential is there. If you do get it back together and your end play is wrong then you'll know that your rear counterweight is damaged. The engine naturally thrusts forward and with your end play being way off your engine was able to damage itself at the rear.
I'm not sure I understand this. The rear counterweight? Unless he has an aftermarket flywheel, then the rear counterweight is the flywheel itself. Now, I have read of possibly over-torquing the flywheel and having that affect endplay, but I'm not sure how that would apply here.
True, the oem flywheel is the couterweight. That is what the thrust bearing is there for .. to take the "forward" thrust that the engine creates. The engine will move forward eating itself at the back if the thrust bearings aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing.
There is a chance that it was damaged. Hopefully not. And hopefully the eccentric lobes haven't rubbed up against the irons.
Last edited by Rotary Alkymist; 11-11-18 at 07:58 PM.
It makes sense what your saying. I could always here a slight grind from the front from the day i got the car, I brought if from a fella who had rebuild it himself and i guess this is the result from him doing it incorrectly. I brought the car not going as he wasn't able to set the timing correct and had fitted it with the wrong plugs. I have also had problems with the gearbox and in that time i removed the box, The engine is running a excedy flywheel, Does this mean i need to add a counter weight to the back? im going to remove the engine from the car and have a look at the rear to make sure that there is no damage
I had a look inside and the thermostat is in there, it loooks like a pin, does this mean that the spring is inside aswell? The link you gave me above for parts i have looked at but being is new zealand the price of shipping makes it quite pricey. I will go to mazda here and price up the parts aswell. If the back looks sweet i should be fine just putting the front back together with new parts?
That is what the thrust bearing is there for .. to take the "forward" thrust that the engine creates.
Right. I understand the fore-aft movement of the rotating assembly while the engine is running. What I am not 100% clear on, are ALL the ramifications of it. For years, even after building a couple rotaries, I never really gave it much thought. It was actually my 3SGTE that taught me about the thrust that the rotating assembly experiences when you press the clutch, and once I learned that ... BOOM! ... the front stack in a rotary made sense to me.
The engine will move forward eating itself at the back if the thrust bearings aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. There is a chance that it was damaged. Hopefully not. And hopefully the eccentric lobes haven't rubbed up against the irons.
The way you're explaining what you're trying to say is confusing and I'm not sure if it's what you're saying or a lack of understanding on my part. The way you're describing this makes it sound like there is far more movement than there really is. For example, you mentioned the shaft rubbing against the side housing surfaces, unless I'm missing something, the rotors and stationary gears make that highly improbable.
As I understand it, there is a certain finite amount of movement in the assembly, and we use the thrust spacers to bring that movement into the accepted range, and Mazda designed it so that all thrust issues would be mitigated at the front end of the assembly. That is why it made sense to me when I read about over-torquing the flywheel because that implies you're sort of forcing it further back on the shaft (if that makes sense) and therefore you will screw up the natural movement and the endplay measurement up front. Even the shape of the shaft itself suggests (to me) that the rear is not a huge concern because it sort of comes off the lobe, maintains the axis through the stationary gear and then tapers off to the flywheel area. The front, on the other hand, comes off the lobe and then sort has that blunt area where the thrust assembly interacts with at the stationary gear.
That said, I am enjoying this discussion, but I'm thinking maybe make another thread for it in the General Tech forum and leave Hypo7's thread for his use. Besides, we would probably get input from some bigger brains over there, too.
Diabolical, thanks for refreshing my memory a bit. I am also enjoying this discussion.
I would like to correct something I said earlier. Rear engine damage will NOT affect endplay. I would like to explain in further detail why rear damage can occur in this circumstance. Correct me if I'm wrong; here it goes.
When an engine is running properly the end play is between main journal and the front counterweight. The end play is soley controlled by the spacer.
If we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? The thrust plate. The thrust washer comes in contact with the needle bearing which rides the rear face of the thrust plate.
If we push the e-shaft backwards from the front, what stops it? Again, the thrust plate. The thrust washer comes in contact with the front needle bearing and it rides the front face of the thrust plate.
Now, let's examine this with the bolt out and the damage that we know of.
If we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it? The thrust plate does but there have been some changes. The rear needle bearing is severely damaged, the thrust washer is also badly damage and the e-shaft is damaged. What is the significance of this damage? Let's dig a bit deeper.
-e-shaft front main journal is worn and possibly shorter front to back.
-the needle bearing is not as wide.
-the thrust washer is not as wide.
All this results in a difference in distance between the front main bearing journal and the thrust plate, increasing end play, which also results in a difference in distance between the flywheel and the rear main bearing.
With this in mind.. if we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? It could be the thrust plate... it could be the rear bearing shoulder.
If we push the e-shaft backward from the front, what stops it from moving with the bolt out?!! Hard to say really but it's the forward thrust that matters most.
I'm sure he was wondering why his clutch was acting weird due to the abnormal positioning of his pressure plate(moving farther away).
If I had the time I would measure a lobe and subtract from 80mm then we would know how much clearance you have between lobe and iron.
I would say that given his current situation that this info could be important to him.
Last edited by Rotary Alkymist; 11-12-18 at 07:33 PM.
All this is very important, can someone please explain to me the difference between a thrust washer and thrust plate? is the washer used to pack out if a bigger spacer is used. or do you use a washer and plate or two plates? I can see in my haynes Manuel that it has two plates but says nothing about a washer?
Also are we know saying that my e shaft is damaged and i should ideally pull the engine apart? is it not a good idea to reassemble and check end play?
... can someone please explain to me the difference between a thrust washer and thrust plate? is the washer used to pack out if a bigger spacer is used. or do you use a washer and plate or two plates? I can see in my haynes Manuel that it has two plates but says nothing about a washer?
Also are we know saying that my e shaft is damaged and i should ideally pull the engine apart? is it not a good idea to reassemble and check end play?
The washer is the piece that fits in the front counterweight. The plate is the piece that goes on the opposite end of the stack (in the stationary gear). The front and rear bearings interact directly with each on their outer sides, and they interact with the bearing plate on their inner side.
If you look at the Mazdatrix link I posted above, there is an annotated photo of the front stack. It will show you what's what.
All this results in a difference in distance between the front main bearing journal and the thrust plate, increasing end play, which also results in a difference in distance between the flywheel and the rear main bearing.
With this in mind.. if we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? It could be the thrust plate... it could be the rear bearing shoulder.
When you put it like this, what you're saying starts to make sense. Once the front stack gets hosed, spec'd endplay goes out the window and if there's more movement up front, then there MUST BE an equal potential increase at the rear. So I can definitely understand where you're coming from now. That said, I've never seen it, but that's neither here nor there at this point. I'm still of an eager student of these cars and engines.
A few of the details you cited are a little confusing, but I think it's probably just a matter of the way we speak - you use the term "thrust plate" a lot and at times I think you meant something else. For the record, that's not a criticism, it's just me saying that I tried to quote-unquote "correct" you in my mind as I was reading. I know I'm guilty of doing the same thing in some of the responses I give on this board, too, so again - no offense meant.
Hi guys. Have had a go at setting the end play today and could not get a ready. The e shaft is jammed inside the stationary gear and will not slide in and out. If I leave the stationary gear unbolt it will pull out with the shaft and the only way to get it back to the housing is to lightly tap it with a hammer. Does anyone have an idea on how to free it up without me having to pull the engine apart. The e shaft slides fine apart from the front stationary housing. If I keep pulling it out lighting tapping it back and turning it in between do you think it will eventually free itself back up?
I'll be honest with you. I would've yanked the engine half way through this thread. It's probably in your best interest to think about pulling the engine and doing it properly. Honestly man, if you don't do this right your engine is toast and in the long run you'll be putting in twice the time and we don't even want to think about the money wasted. Yank the engine and pat yourself on the back for doing it right.
Last edited by Rotary Alkymist; 12-14-18 at 03:59 PM.
I decided to pull the engine out and start pulling the thing apart it wasn't easy to pull apart but once it came this was the damage I found. The e shaft that goes though the bearing in the front stationary the lobes seem fine. But the buggered is buggered. It could a bit of beating to free it up. Does any know if I now need to get the e shaft checked for balance?
Ouch. Your e-shaft must be a paper weight no? Are there any grooves that can catch a finger nail on the eshaft? I had a feeling that you had bearing damage. Is that the only bearing with damage?? If so you're really lucky! Check all your bearings and confirm that they haven't "spun". I've been there man -it sucks.
Its been a very long time since i have posted, Unsure if anyone will jump back on this post but here is what i have found today after closer inspection Hardening gone?
11-11-18, 07:33 PM
I know I'm guilty of doing the same thing in some of the responses I give on this board, too, so again - no offense meant.
