I switched to E85 - $2.19 a gallon - Long Island Locations
 

Guys,

I finally switched over to E85. I made 480 HP on 20psi, the car is spinning 3rd and 4th on the street!

I had a hard time finding one of the gas stations so I will post both locations here.

The first one in Massapequa is closer to Queens. Southern State to the exit for Broadway. I think it's exit 31 or somwhere around there Take that east and you will see the Sunoco on the left about a mile up. Very easy to get to. This is on a full service pump and closes at midnight I believe but defintely not open 24 hours. They had no problems pumping into a gas container.

The 2nd one is off Route 109 and Wellwood. Look up S and K Speed in Lindenhurst and it's on the other side of the steet. It's a CITGO gas station. There is a big gas station on the corner but the Citgo is next to it. The pump here takes credit cards and you can pump yourself. They will not want you pumping into a container. This one closes at 10pm

The gas at both stations was 1 penny apart. I paid $2.19 and he says it might drop under $2.00

Anthony

so how much did you have to do to your maps or anything? no changes to anything "hardware"-wise (same pump etc)?

kevin.

^ good questions
please get back to us anthony

Nice.

Did you make or lose power after the switch?

it takes 30% more fuel to run an E85 setup versus a stock gas set up. So you need bigger injectors, and a bigger pump.

I suspect he made more power for sure with E85 as its Octane Rating is somewhere in the 105 - 110 range.

Nice... How about injectors size did you have to go bigger or add extra?

Yet another reason for Roan to stay home! lol...

I added exactly 30% more fuel across the entire map. I have a TEC3 so it was just 2 settings that I needed to key in. It took 5 seconds and I did not have to make anymore changes yet.

Hard to say since I've never dynoed 20psi on pump but the car sure does feel faster lol.

30% is about average. Now with the winter blend it's actually E70. All the pumps also say "minimum 70% ethanol"

I've always had 4x1600's so I did not have to change a thing. Duty cycle was 70% at 20 psi so I think I can get away with 25psi.

I was joking with him last night about that :)

are you going to run this in your tank all the time?

You might just be the person I watch to see the effects of the ethanol- I wanted to wait until someone was running it for a year or so in thier tanks all the time.

Yes, the E85 station is so close to my house that I'll run it full time. I have about 10 gallons right now in C16 containers just incase the station is closed. I've been following other forums and it seems there are really no negative effects from what they say.... The Turbo Buick guys have been running it for over 2 years now. Here is a post from a GN forum about E85 back in 2006.

First of all, what is E85?:
E85 consists of 85% ethanol and 15% additives. The additives vary a lot depending on where you live and time of the year. But roughly, the 15% additives is mostly made up of gasoline, additives that helps the engine to make a complete burn, additives that helps the engine start when it´s cold and additives to color the fuel and the flame (so you know what substance it is, and also to help you see that it is really burning).


(Positive) facts about E85:

1. It is not corrosive to the fuel system or the engine. This is a myth and ethanol is often confused with methanol, which actually have corrosive properties. Some models before 1988 on the other hand may have some parts that is not ethanol resistant. If we are talking Volvo´s, then this mainly applies to the non-electronically injection systems such as K-jet etc. Most cars with electronical fuel injection (EFI) should be resistant to ethanol.

2. It is not as harmful to the nature/environment as gasoline or any other petroleum products for that matter. Ethanol is made out of renewable energy resources such as crops and trees to name a few things. The carbon dioxide that an ethanol powered car emits is not contributing to the greenhouse effect, but is taken up by the plants and is being "re-used". The carbon dioxide then goes around in a closed loop. Gasoline on the other hand is made from oil that comes from old dinosaurs , plants and other stuff 100 000 of years ago, and it doesn´t take part in the closed loop but only adds to the amount of greenhouse gasses. Ethanol is also easily bio-degradeable if it should leak into our environment.

3. E85 is 104-105 octane and therefore it´s more knock-resistent and can tolerate more boost or a higher CR.

4. E85 cools the intake charge more and therefore it´s more knock-resistent and can tolerate more boost or a higher CR. And it also makes the engine run cooler and to some degree, even safer.

5. E85 is in most cases at least 5% more effícient than gasoline at the same lambda value (up to 25% more efficient on some cars optimized soley for E85).

6. Since E85 has very good cleaning properties as well as leaving behind a rest-product of water, it is cleaning the fuel system and it will keep the injectors nice and clean. The combustion chambers, valves, ports and the exhaust will also be clean(er), almost like the car had water injection.

7. In most cases it will cost less $/mile to run on E85.


(Negative) facts about E85:

1. Cars running on E85 have some trouble starting when the engine temperature drops below +5*C. Cars running E100 (not very common) have some trouble starting when the intake (the air) temperature is below +15*C. This is easily solved by using an engine heater in the winter, electrical or fuel-heated (this is recommended on all cars regardless of fuel to get better mileage, less wear on the engine and less impact on the environment etc., but that is another matter to discuss and will not be brought up here...). Some people also adds a little extra gasoline to the tank of E85 to help with cold-starts.

2. Since cars running E85 requires roughly 30% more fuel, a tank of E85 will not get you as far as a tank of gasoline and you will have to refuel more often. This is often disregarded by E85 users who learn to live with it because of the economical gains.


Technical facts about the mentioned fuels:

E85 requires 39% more fuel to reach stoich even if that is not what you may come up with when doing calculations based on the table below. This is because the injector flow is slightly different when using E85 among many other things I can´t really think of at this time (will be added at a later time).

Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda
Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1
Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503
Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900
E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1
E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143
E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673
E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1
E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.4 .................. 0.714
E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

The term AFRst refers to the Air Fuel Ratio under stoichiometric, or ideal air fuel ratio mixture conditions. FARst refers to the Fuel Air Ratio under stoichiometric conditions, and is simply the reciprocal of AFRst.

Equivalence Ratio is the ratio of actual Fuel Air Ratio to Stoichiometric Fuel Air Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express richer mixtures. Lambda is the ratio of actual Air Fuel Ratio to Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express leanness conditions (i.e., less fuel, less rich) mixtures of fuel and air.

When driving purely on E85 you can blend it with up to 25% gasoline in case you want to raise the AFR number used to produce max. power. In that case you can raise the boost even further since the volume of fuel needed to reach the desired lambda is decreased.


Performance application and fuel needed:

Performance application:
Let´s pretend for a while that the ECU´s in our cars are pretty good at their jobs. On gasoline it will try to keep an AFR of 14.7 (lambda=1) all the time at idle, cruise and light load. It will also try to keep a good AFR at WOT/boost of 13.2-12.5, sometimes even lower than that, probably closer to 11.x.

Why? Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs.

As you can see from the table shown above this section, the ideal target AFR´s under boost for both gasoline and E85 are listed. For gasoline it´s 13.23-12.5, and for E85 it´s 8.47-6.975. However, with E85 you will not need to richen the mixture under WOT/boost as far as 6.975 or beyond. It does not need to be proportionally richer when compared to gasoline.

Why? Again, Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs. And at such a low AFR as 9.765 (lambda=1 on E85) or lower the fuel cools pretty good, don´t you think so?

Many people with some experience in mapping an ECU for use with E85 says that as high AFR as 8.5 or lambda=0.80-0.85 works well. No need to go to the extreme end of the useable scale to get safe power. It only uses a lot of fuel without giving any benefits.

Since you don´t have to richen the mixture as many percent (proportionally) as you have to on gasoline, you can make more power without having to use as much fuel. Instead you can keep the AFR´s leaner across the board and by doing so you can make room for higher boost without maxing out the injectors.

The burn rate will of course be different for different AFR's. It is a matter of tuning it right and getting the peak cylinder pressure where you want it (10 degrees after TDC). But if you are around the same ratio as on gasoline (i.e if you have installed injectors that are almost exactly 42% bigger) you are in the ballpark and do not have to worry about it. More about this later on.

Fuel needed:
As you will see, both in my article as well as other places on the internet, different fuel requirements are listed. What numbers will you see and why?

1. A car converted, but not specifically mapped for E85 will consume ~30% more fuel.

2. A car running E85 will require ~42% more fuel.

3. According to your own calculations (if you have bothered to look in to it), it will not quite add up. Most people scratch their head.

Let me show you a table again:

Mode ........... Gas .... E85 ...... extra % (mass) ... extra % (flow)
Stoich .......... 14.7 .... 9.765 ........ +50.5% ................ +42%
Lean power ... 13.2 .... 8.47 .......... +55.8% ................ +47%
Rich power .... 12.5 .... 6.975 ........ +79.2% ................ +69%

E85 has a higher density than gasoline. The change in AFR from 14.7 (lambda=1 for gasoline) to 9.765 (lambda=1 for E85) is 50.5%. But the resulting flow needed is only 42% greater.

Explanations to this: E85 will need a fuel flow that is 42% greater than the flow needed for gasoline. However, it will not use 42% more fuel since it will actually be more efficient. Generally, the engine will consume ~30% more fuel.

If I am using 46.7lb/hr injectors (45% larger than stock) which are easy to get hold of, my AFR´s should theoretically look like this:

*At idle, cruise and low load (closed loop) the AFR will be 9.56, the O2-sensor sees this and will correct it to 9.765. A very small correction, and it lies well within the adaptation limits. Not even noticeable as more than normal adaptation by the ECU.

*When at WOT/boost (open loop) the AFR will be between 8.58-8.13. This looks a little lean according to the AFR table, doesn´t it? It isn´t even in the "rich" area according to the table. No worries, the cooling properties of E85 are pretty good. But in reality I will actually get an AFR of around 8-7.5 since my ECU wants to run a slightly richer mixture than 12.5 on gasoline. It obviously does not know that it is running E85...

someone else had told me about the ethanol breaking down the adhesive that holds the baffles in the fuel tank in place.

I know from my own line of work that even the little bit of ethanol that has been in all gas has caused fiberglass tanks to break down, I know this because I repair or replace them.

when I say I want to watch the effects, I mean on engine life and fuel tank, lines, and fuel system parts.

Engine life might be a tough one because most of us end up needing a motor sooner then later because of the nature of what we all like to do with our cars.

I've been in contact with a few guys in the drag racing forum that have been running E85 for quite some time. They have told me all was ok so we'll see.

Anthony

Anthony, do you think you will have to upgrade your fuel pump, when you push past 25 psi?

How do you like it compared to race gas? ( I know your going to miss that leaded fuel smell/headache lol) Are you premixing? If so any worrying about the premix separating / breaking down? Did you change any fuel filters or just fill it up and run?

I keep seeing pretty strong #’s coming from E85, and have been seriously considering switching my entire setup (turbo, E6K, and ditching C16)


Notice anything else different?, smells, temperatures, smoothness, lower end power

Are you going to run E85 all the time, or still use race gas @ the track?

I have dual bosche pumps so I have enough fuel pump. I will have to add more injectors, I have 4x1600s now and will add 2 more on a GZ manifold.


I'm only using this on the street, I am not using it to replace C16 just yet. As the season is ending I'm going up on boost and I don't want to test the limits of the E85, I also do not have enough injector so I have to stay with the C16 and water injection combo for now.

I didn't premix yet but will be. When I get to 500 miles I am going to pull the filters and see what is in there. The car feels a lot faster, I will be going back on the dyno soon and will post detailed charts. I don't like the smell at all. I think it stinks lol. Car idles very very smooth and accelerates smooth as well, same as on pump though.

I'm going to run E85 all the time on the street and C16 at the track for the rest of the season. After I add more injectors I'll go up on the boost with E85.

Anthony

Stinks???!?!? I was initially imagining it would smell like a rubbing alcohol fire then i remembered that it’s not isoprol alcohol, and then wondered what the hell it could smell like. Lol

I cant wait to see the graphs, Also really interested to see how the E85 acts in higher boost applications.

What was your RWHP @ 20 psi on race gas for comparison? Seems everyone is making more power with similar to lower boost levels, obviously there’s more fuel/ potential energy added but making more power and not having to change setups is intriguing since $ isn’t growing on trees

noice!

Anthony,
Where can I find unleaded race gas at the pump on LI?
I know commack has 110 but it's leased.
John

hey did you have to brake the injectors in on the e85, i seen some thing on youtube where switching over should be done threw 1/4 tank mixes before a full on switch if the injectors where used with pump gas first.. ? and can this be mixed with pump gas there's not a e85 station on every corner to just refuel with it you know.

There is no break in procedure. As for gas stations I live close to 2 of them, one of them 5 min away. If I am going far, I just swap back to my pump gas map if needed.

I know a spot on deer park ave that used to sell it from the pump, I'm heading out now so I'll check if they still offer it.

this could help some of you guys out to find stations in your erea..
http://www.e85refueling.com/distance.php?page=3

ya the corn juice is great . we ran out of gas on the dyno . need one more pump. hopefully be4 the bbq. we will have it back on the dyno

I don'e think Montes on 231 sells racegas anymore. The place on straight path(right off edison) sell 100 octane unleaded and gasoline heaven in commack sells 110 leaded- both for the same price8.50 gal
J

Sunaco in wantagh along side the wantagh pkwy sells 100 and 110 cam2. been there for years and its way closer then going out to suffolk.

Yup, you're right. No more race gas there.