FD vs. Honda Valkyrie 1500 (bike)
03-16-08, 08:58 PM
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FD vs. Honda Valkyrie 1500 (bike)
out and about looking for a little fun (trouble) tonight, spot this guy on a Honda Valkyrie (huge motor on these bikes) and an obnoxiously loud exhaust (good thing I had the ear plugs in) cutting in an out of traffic and hitting the throttle, trying to be a bad ***
"this outta be good" I'm thinking
I've run bikes before, and they don't really scare me from a roll, it's from a dead stop they always get you (asuming the rider knows how to launch) but the Valkyrie is known for exceptional torque and roll-on performance
I catch him at the next night (behind him, another car in the other lane) and ease past him on the right with a little throttle, just to get his attention...sure enough, he's game, guns it and gets up next to me as I'm waiting in third gear, at maybe 45-50 mph...he nails it and I follow suit, by the top of third I have about one car on him, and let off just for a second to see if he still wants to play, yep, he upshifts and is hard on the throttle, so I get into fourth and start pulling a little more, 1-1/2, perhaps 2 cars, and let off because it's a pretty low speed limit and we're flying
I gave him a thumbs up and turned off at the next light (lots of traffic)...pretty good run
I hit 1.07 bar on the PFC during the run
mods: street port 3 mm engine built by RX-7 World, BNR Stage 2s professionally hogged out by David Garfinkle, with David's custom y-pipe, 850/1200 injectors, full exhaust with Pettit cat-back and RX-7 Store resonated mp, M2 med IC
"this outta be good" I'm thinking
I've run bikes before, and they don't really scare me from a roll, it's from a dead stop they always get you (asuming the rider knows how to launch) but the Valkyrie is known for exceptional torque and roll-on performance
I catch him at the next night (behind him, another car in the other lane) and ease past him on the right with a little throttle, just to get his attention...sure enough, he's game, guns it and gets up next to me as I'm waiting in third gear, at maybe 45-50 mph...he nails it and I follow suit, by the top of third I have about one car on him, and let off just for a second to see if he still wants to play, yep, he upshifts and is hard on the throttle, so I get into fourth and start pulling a little more, 1-1/2, perhaps 2 cars, and let off because it's a pretty low speed limit and we're flying
I gave him a thumbs up and turned off at the next light (lots of traffic)...pretty good run
I hit 1.07 bar on the PFC during the run
mods: street port 3 mm engine built by RX-7 World, BNR Stage 2s professionally hogged out by David Garfinkle, with David's custom y-pipe, 850/1200 injectors, full exhaust with Pettit cat-back and RX-7 Store resonated mp, M2 med IC
03-19-08, 08:36 PM
#3
i pulled up to a gsxr(i think a 750) a little while back and the dude was being a real ***. thought he was untouchable on his bike, and to make it worse 2 chix were following him and he was showing off for them, which is probably why he raced me in the first place. the girls were laughing because i was gonna race him. hehe
so i started in 2nd at about 35 and pulled on him instantly about 1 1/2 cars. quite hilarious because he was so cocky. he then promptly turned left. lol
so i started in 2nd at about 35 and pulled on him instantly about 1 1/2 cars. quite hilarious because he was so cocky. he then promptly turned left. lol
03-19-08, 11:41 PM
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I raced a modified C6 vette (no idea which model, but it was very loud) from about 45-85 on my old Zx11 which has a couple of mods. Its probably about on par power wise with a tired stock hayabusa, but has much lower gearing and its a little heavier but close to the same weight.
He got the jump on me but I passed pretty quick up on one, which in of itself is slightly disconcerting, a zx11 is a long heavy bike, particularly very front heavy and wheelies just don't feel natural. It won't even wheelie second stock.
I went close to the top of second, slowed down before 90 and corvette boy passed me at about 100 and continued accelerating.
I think to beat a liter bike from the highway, even an older one you've gotta either have lots more power than most of us have or race from a speed where the aero is starting to be real advantageous on your side, like 80-90.
He got the jump on me but I passed pretty quick up on one, which in of itself is slightly disconcerting, a zx11 is a long heavy bike, particularly very front heavy and wheelies just don't feel natural. It won't even wheelie second stock.
I went close to the top of second, slowed down before 90 and corvette boy passed me at about 100 and continued accelerating.
I think to beat a liter bike from the highway, even an older one you've gotta either have lots more power than most of us have or race from a speed where the aero is starting to be real advantageous on your side, like 80-90.
03-20-08, 01:01 AM
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of course, something like a Busa is going to be much tougher to hang with, because they have relatively good aerodynamics AND about 180 hp at the wheel
I'd love to run my ZX-10 against my FD in it's current state of tune, unfortunately I don't really trust anyone to ride or drive
03-20-08, 01:04 AM
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03-20-08, 01:52 AM
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I said that about the aero in my last post.
And a stock busa doesn't have 180 WHP, unless there is some major change for 2008. They usually make under 160 WHP bone stock, on an eddy current dyno they make mid 130's.
http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/true1.html
I have personally watched one with 1800 miles in perfect shape get a baseline dyno reading of 154 WHP on a dyno jet.
Another one with 45K miles worth of mostly freeway miles did 144 WHP
And a stock busa doesn't have 180 WHP, unless there is some major change for 2008. They usually make under 160 WHP bone stock, on an eddy current dyno they make mid 130's.
http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/true1.html
I have personally watched one with 1800 miles in perfect shape get a baseline dyno reading of 154 WHP on a dyno jet.
Another one with 45K miles worth of mostly freeway miles did 144 WHP
depends on the bike, I've raced older R1s with my FD when I only had about 320 at the wheels and I was right with him from 3rd to 4th...remember as you approach higher speeds, 100 mph and up, horsepower and aerodynamics dominate the equation (rolling resistance), and the power to weight advantage of a bike becomes much less of a factor
of course, something like a Busa is going to be much tougher to hang with, because they have relatively good aerodynamics AND about 180 hp at the wheel
I'd love to run my ZX-10 against my FD in it's current state of tune, unfortunately I don't really trust anyone to ride or drive
of course, something like a Busa is going to be much tougher to hang with, because they have relatively good aerodynamics AND about 180 hp at the wheel
I'd love to run my ZX-10 against my FD in it's current state of tune, unfortunately I don't really trust anyone to ride or drive
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03-20-08, 08:20 AM
#8
I have a 2007 GSXR 750 that is heavily modded and I can tell you that even with my FD on race gas, it wouldn't be able to touch my bike. So I am going to have to call bullshit on POST #3 unless it was an old 750 or an inexperienced rider. My 750 runs high 9s. It would take a 600+ WHP RX7 to hang with that. Oh and I would know, I have both......
03-20-08, 10:26 AM
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heck, ZX-10Rs are producing 165-170 on the dyno all the time
03-20-08, 10:28 AM
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03-21-08, 12:18 AM
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All I know is my 07 600rr is yet to be pulled by a car. I'm sure it could lose (its only 599cc), but it eats 400hp FDs from any speed. **** the bike will go 165mph stock. Any STOCK liter bike with some basic drag mods like an extended rear and gas powered speed-shifter should take almost any "street" car. I won't even get into turbo liter bikes. Those will stomp 1000hp cars.
Simple matter of HP to weight. My bike with me on it weighs in at 552lbs and dynos 109WHP without the RAM air effect I'd get in real world conditions. 0-60 in about 3 seconds. 0-100 in less then 7 seconds.
An FD with driver is about 3,000lb. So you'd need close to 600whp to have a similar ratio.
This is all straight line stuff I' talking about.
On the other hand, I could never get the lap times on my bike that I could in my MR2 or FD. There is something to be said for having 4 fat tires and a front end that doesn't come up.
Simple matter of HP to weight. My bike with me on it weighs in at 552lbs and dynos 109WHP without the RAM air effect I'd get in real world conditions. 0-60 in about 3 seconds. 0-100 in less then 7 seconds.
An FD with driver is about 3,000lb. So you'd need close to 600whp to have a similar ratio.
This is all straight line stuff I' talking about.
On the other hand, I could never get the lap times on my bike that I could in my MR2 or FD. There is something to be said for having 4 fat tires and a front end that doesn't come up.
Last edited by zenofspeed; 03-21-08 at 12:36 AM.
03-21-08, 04:09 PM
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again, statements like this show you don't understand anything
**** the bike will go 165mph stock.
.
Simple matter of HP to weight.
03-21-08, 04:13 PM
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Road load horsepower is the power required for a vehicle to maintain a constant speed on a level road. It is the sum of the powers required to overcome the car's rolling resistance, and aerodynamic drag.
Rolling Resistance
Rolling resistance includes power train losses, wheel bearing losses, and power losses in the tires. Of the three, tire rolling resistance is the greatest, and so dominant that the other losses may be disregarded for first-order approximations.
The force of tire rolling resistance in radial-ply tires for passenger cars tend to be about 1.2% of the car's weight at 30 mph (48 km/h), increasing to about 1.6% at 70 mph (113 km/h), when properly inflated. For a 3000 pound car these equate to roughly 35 and 50 pounds of force at 30 and 70 mph, respectively. Under inflation or excessive weight increase tire rolling resistance considerably.
Aerodynamic Drag
The force of aerodynamic drag is a function of a car's shape (Coefficient of Drag), size (frontal area), the square of it's speed, and (to a minor extent) its altitude. For a mid-size sedan this equates to about 20 and 90 pounds of force at 30 and 70 mph, respectively.
Modern cars have drag coefficients (Cd) ranging from 0.30 to 0.50 (with pickups and SUV's being somewhat higher). To give some idea of what these number mean, here are typical Cd's for some other objects: an airfoil, 0.05; a ball, 0.10; a narrow (30°) cone, 0.34; a wide (60°) cone, 0.51; a square flat plate, 1.17; a parachute, 1.35.
Road Load Horsepower
Horsepower is a measurement of a force applied at a speed. Both rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag are calculated in terms of force. At any chosen speed, these forces can be resolved into horsepower requirements. If the car can supply that amount of power to the wheels, then it can maintain that speed. Total road load horsepower for a typical mid-size sedan is about 15 hp (11 kW) at 50 mph (80km/h).
Since rolling resistance force is not a function of speed, then rolling resistance horsepower (a function of speed) increases proportionally with speed. Since aerodynamic drag force is proportional to the square of the car's speed, then aerodynamic drag horsepower increases proportionally to the cube of the car's road speed.
It is generally accepted that, on a typical car, its rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag become equal at about 50 mph. So at twice that speed the aerodynamic drag is about 4 times the rolling resistance.
Rolling Resistance
Rolling resistance includes power train losses, wheel bearing losses, and power losses in the tires. Of the three, tire rolling resistance is the greatest, and so dominant that the other losses may be disregarded for first-order approximations.
The force of tire rolling resistance in radial-ply tires for passenger cars tend to be about 1.2% of the car's weight at 30 mph (48 km/h), increasing to about 1.6% at 70 mph (113 km/h), when properly inflated. For a 3000 pound car these equate to roughly 35 and 50 pounds of force at 30 and 70 mph, respectively. Under inflation or excessive weight increase tire rolling resistance considerably.
Aerodynamic Drag
The force of aerodynamic drag is a function of a car's shape (Coefficient of Drag), size (frontal area), the square of it's speed, and (to a minor extent) its altitude. For a mid-size sedan this equates to about 20 and 90 pounds of force at 30 and 70 mph, respectively.
Modern cars have drag coefficients (Cd) ranging from 0.30 to 0.50 (with pickups and SUV's being somewhat higher). To give some idea of what these number mean, here are typical Cd's for some other objects: an airfoil, 0.05; a ball, 0.10; a narrow (30°) cone, 0.34; a wide (60°) cone, 0.51; a square flat plate, 1.17; a parachute, 1.35.
Road Load Horsepower
Horsepower is a measurement of a force applied at a speed. Both rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag are calculated in terms of force. At any chosen speed, these forces can be resolved into horsepower requirements. If the car can supply that amount of power to the wheels, then it can maintain that speed. Total road load horsepower for a typical mid-size sedan is about 15 hp (11 kW) at 50 mph (80km/h).
Since rolling resistance force is not a function of speed, then rolling resistance horsepower (a function of speed) increases proportionally with speed. Since aerodynamic drag force is proportional to the square of the car's speed, then aerodynamic drag horsepower increases proportionally to the cube of the car's road speed.
It is generally accepted that, on a typical car, its rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag become equal at about 50 mph. So at twice that speed the aerodynamic drag is about 4 times the rolling resistance.
bike aerodynamics are not that good, although the Busa is certainly better than average
03-22-08, 12:11 AM
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Congratulations, you can copy and paste.. 
I'm quite familiar with fluid dynamics actually, but I'm not going to waste too much time responded to your worthless attitude.
F = (1/2) Cd*A*v^2
F -Force of Friction
Cd -Friction coefficient (drag coeff.)
A - Frontal Area of the projectile
v - Velocity of the projectile
Yes a bike has a greater Cd, but what do you think the FRONTAL AREA does to this final product?
I didn't realize you were attempting to have a higher level physics discussion.. I thought you were looking for basic feedback of bike vs car. But my statement is from practical experience, so calling BS is kinda strange... It is true I have yet to be pulled by a car, I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying it hasn't. Secondly, it is also true that the bike wins, hands down, vs FDs pushing around 400hp.
Obviously, aerodynamic drag is the primary factor of engine workload while cruising. I think around 60-70% at 70mph. But during acceleration, mass is key. FYI - Rolling resistance is significantly less on a motorcycle.
If you were to actually apply some physics formulas, instead of just spouting off cocky conjecture, maybe you could share your findings?
REPEAT: you'd need roughly 600hp in a 3000lb FD to keep up with a 550lb bike with 110hp.
douche..
I'm quite familiar with fluid dynamics actually, but I'm not going to waste too much time responded to your worthless attitude.
F = (1/2) Cd*A*v^2
F -Force of Friction
Cd -Friction coefficient (drag coeff.)
A - Frontal Area of the projectile
v - Velocity of the projectile
Yes a bike has a greater Cd, but what do you think the FRONTAL AREA does to this final product?
I didn't realize you were attempting to have a higher level physics discussion.. I thought you were looking for basic feedback of bike vs car. But my statement is from practical experience, so calling BS is kinda strange... It is true I have yet to be pulled by a car, I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying it hasn't. Secondly, it is also true that the bike wins, hands down, vs FDs pushing around 400hp.
Obviously, aerodynamic drag is the primary factor of engine workload while cruising. I think around 60-70% at 70mph. But during acceleration, mass is key. FYI - Rolling resistance is significantly less on a motorcycle.
If you were to actually apply some physics formulas, instead of just spouting off cocky conjecture, maybe you could share your findings?
REPEAT: you'd need roughly 600hp in a 3000lb FD to keep up with a 550lb bike with 110hp.
douche..
Last edited by zenofspeed; 03-22-08 at 12:17 AM.
03-22-08, 03:32 AM
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I hate people who drive motorcycles irresponsibly on public roads. They are a threat to themselves and other motorists, and they reflect poorly on the entire motorcycle community. Every time I see some dumbass weaving in and out of traffic on a crotch rocket with no helmet on, all I can think about is how badly I want him to die. That may make me a bad person. IDC. People who drive motorcycles poorly are complete retards.
03-22-08, 04:01 AM
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My experience with this:
If you were to race from 90-100 up, a 400WHP FD will take you.
Anything below 100 and you will most likely be in the lead for a while,
eventually the car would pass.
If you were to race from 90-100 up, a 400WHP FD will take you.
Anything below 100 and you will most likely be in the lead for a while,
eventually the car would pass.
Congratulations, you can copy and paste..
I'm quite familiar with fluid dynamics actually, but I'm not going to waste too much time responded to your worthless attitude.
F = (1/2) Cd*A*v^2
F -Force of Friction
Cd -Friction coefficient (drag coeff.)
A - Frontal Area of the projectile
v - Velocity of the projectile
Yes a bike has a greater Cd, but what do you think the FRONTAL AREA does to this final product?
I didn't realize you were attempting to have a higher level physics discussion.. I thought you were looking for basic feedback of bike vs car. But my statement is from practical experience, so calling BS is kinda strange... It is true I have yet to be pulled by a car, I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying it hasn't. Secondly, it is also true that the bike wins, hands down, vs FDs pushing around 400hp.
Obviously, aerodynamic drag is the primary factor of engine workload while cruising. I think around 60-70% at 70mph. But during acceleration, mass is key. FYI - Rolling resistance is significantly less on a motorcycle.
If you were to actually apply some physics formulas, instead of just spouting off cocky conjecture, maybe you could share your findings?
REPEAT: you'd need roughly 600hp in a 3000lb FD to keep up with a 550lb bike with 110hp.
douche..
I'm quite familiar with fluid dynamics actually, but I'm not going to waste too much time responded to your worthless attitude.
F = (1/2) Cd*A*v^2
F -Force of Friction
Cd -Friction coefficient (drag coeff.)
A - Frontal Area of the projectile
v - Velocity of the projectile
Yes a bike has a greater Cd, but what do you think the FRONTAL AREA does to this final product?
I didn't realize you were attempting to have a higher level physics discussion.. I thought you were looking for basic feedback of bike vs car. But my statement is from practical experience, so calling BS is kinda strange... It is true I have yet to be pulled by a car, I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying it hasn't. Secondly, it is also true that the bike wins, hands down, vs FDs pushing around 400hp.
Obviously, aerodynamic drag is the primary factor of engine workload while cruising. I think around 60-70% at 70mph. But during acceleration, mass is key. FYI - Rolling resistance is significantly less on a motorcycle.
If you were to actually apply some physics formulas, instead of just spouting off cocky conjecture, maybe you could share your findings?
REPEAT: you'd need roughly 600hp in a 3000lb FD to keep up with a 550lb bike with 110hp.
douche..
03-22-08, 09:58 AM
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Yeah that is probably the case. I'll retract my "at any speed" comment. I've never raced a car where we started at 90+ (way too fast for streets). And by the time I hit 100mph, I'm so far ahead, I let off.
03-22-08, 08:52 PM
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Here's the problem for the bikes and remember an RX-7 has a .30 CD.
The ZX-12R has a frontal area of 6.09 ft2 (0.566 m2),
physically larger than the Hayabusa, which is 6.01 ft2 (0.558 m2). But
the advantage for the Suzuki is not just in frontal area. With figures
for both drag and frontal area, it's possible to calculate the coefficient
of drag, which is 0.603 for the 12R and 0.561 for the Hayabusa. The
winner of this wind tunnel shootout is the Suzuki. It's worth remembering, however, that neither of these Cd figures indicate a particularly impressive degree of streamlining, since even a typical passenger car has a Cd of less than 0.60 and some models are lower than 0.30.
physically larger than the Hayabusa, which is 6.01 ft2 (0.558 m2). But
the advantage for the Suzuki is not just in frontal area. With figures
for both drag and frontal area, it's possible to calculate the coefficient
of drag, which is 0.603 for the 12R and 0.561 for the Hayabusa. The
winner of this wind tunnel shootout is the Suzuki. It's worth remembering, however, that neither of these Cd figures indicate a particularly impressive degree of streamlining, since even a typical passenger car has a Cd of less than 0.60 and some models are lower than 0.30.
03-24-08, 12:31 AM
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03-25-08, 11:37 AM
#20
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Absolute garbage. I used to run my buddies 900 rr from 65 mile roll ons and I could put 3 cars on him up tp 140 mph and that was with 385 rwhp. He was making 130 hp at the crank, but from a light he'd walk me. I've walked away from so many 600's I cant' keep count.
Here's the problem for the bikes and remember an RX-7 has a .30 CD.
http://www.qsl.net/n5mya/aero.html
Here's the problem for the bikes and remember an RX-7 has a .30 CD.
http://www.qsl.net/n5mya/aero.html
03-25-08, 11:41 AM
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chris is dead-on
I've raced older R1s from about 70 to 120 and it was pretty much dead even, plus that was about 40 rwhp hp ago...I've never had a problem with 600s...it's funny when they get pulled because they think they're so "invincible" lol
of course I love bikes, but I recognize their limits, and a newer ZX-10 will hang with Busas up to about 120 anyway
I've raced older R1s from about 70 to 120 and it was pretty much dead even, plus that was about 40 rwhp hp ago...I've never had a problem with 600s...it's funny when they get pulled because they think they're so "invincible" lol
of course I love bikes, but I recognize their limits, and a newer ZX-10 will hang with Busas up to about 120 anyway
03-25-08, 01:36 PM
#22
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Numbers don't lie. It sounds to me like the people on the bikes either weight 300 pounds or are total pussies (or they don't want to die) and don't know how to downshift.
03-25-08, 02:08 PM
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03-25-08, 04:16 PM
#24
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Not *that* much more complicated.
A 3000-pound car and driver with 500 HP has 6 pounds per horsepower, whereas a 600 pound bike and rider with 130 HP has 4.6 pounds per horsepower, and unless it has no mid-range torque whatsoever and terrible gearing, that 33% difference doesn't just disappear (unless the bike can't go full throttle for whatever reason...which is possible at lower speeds on very high power bikes, or because of a poor rider).
A 3000-pound car and driver with 500 HP has 6 pounds per horsepower, whereas a 600 pound bike and rider with 130 HP has 4.6 pounds per horsepower, and unless it has no mid-range torque whatsoever and terrible gearing, that 33% difference doesn't just disappear (unless the bike can't go full throttle for whatever reason...which is possible at lower speeds on very high power bikes, or because of a poor rider).
03-25-08, 05:06 PM
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again, read post 13 carefully, then post 18...try to comprehend....get outside your little "power-to-weight" thinking box, because at speeds approaching triple digits and beyond, weight plays progressively less of a factor while horsepower and aerodynamics increasingly dominate the equation, got it? this same archaic argument has played out on countless FD vs. Supra threads and FD vs. bike threads over the years on this forum