Clarice

Hey all, joining up on the forum as I think about diving in to the RX7 and rotary world in general. No car to speak of at the moment...

I've had a few experiences buying "interesting" project cars and think I've learned a bit which I'm putting to use by joining up here before buying anything. Here's my vehicular history (boring commuter cars removed... this is going to take a while, tl;dr see bold at bottom of post) :

1) '01 VW GTI, VR6. First car I ever owned, bought when I was 16. Surprisingly reliable for the era of German cars. At the time it was both my project and daily car, so I never got too into it... still miss it sometimes, was just overall a really solid car, would honestly recommend it to anyone for their teenager who wants a nice-ish car and to learn to drive stick. Sold it off when I moved to Texas as it'd been a New England car for most of its life (also where I was living at the time) and the body was starting to rust. Got a real job out of school and thought I should buy a newer car -- regret that, horrible CVT broke within a year -- but oh well. Parts were always super expensive "because German", and "German engineering" means "we somehow engineered this bolt to fit in there, but we didn't engineer a way for you to get it out; go see a dealer with special tools, thanks". Made me appreciate but pretty much be done with European cars.

2) '89 Toyota MR2 Supercharged. Got this car for a steal from a guy who didn't realize it was the supercharged model and should've commanded a much higher price as such. It was my first real project car, the kind of thing I could leave half-apart for a few weeks as I had something else to drive to work. Super fun to drive, but the aftermarket support was next-to-nothing, which got annoying quick. Any parts that were used on other Toyotas were super cheap and plentiful, but anything model-specific was jacked to high heaven because "rare NOS parts". Needed this little half-inch piece of rubber that goes in front of the headlight popup housings, for instance... those were $70 NOS, for what was originally an $8 part.

Working on the engine (being mid-engined) was an absolute nightmare as well, which I wasn't a fan of, as it kept me from being willing to go and actually try things. Also annoying issues like leaky T-Tops and old-age electrical problems. Ended up going to buy a house and needed to sell it for some extra cash... thought I'd miss it, but I never really did. Guess it wasn't for me.

3) '92 NA Miata. Bought this for $600 off a guy who had purchased it from the original owner for the sole purpose of stealing its hardtop. Apparently the original owner was some lady from New Orleans who cared not about physical appearance, only mechanical functionality.. what's left of the paint has been sprayed with stencils of pin-up girls, I guess? The whole thing is hilariously clapped out, but runs and drives without any issues. I really bought it so that I could teach some friends how to drive stick, but sort of figured I'd clean it up and keep it as a project car afterward. Working on the engine has been great (not that I've done much, basically just tuned it up to chase down a high idle, but everything I've needed to do is super accessible).

Bad news is, this thing either went swimming after Katrina or someone just drive it around for years with the top down, because the interior is rusted beyond belief. Any non-painted metal has pretty much ceased to exist. I was swapping some seats in this past weekend (needed an impact wrench to even get the rusted bolts off) and came across a fully-exposed fuel pump assembly (should have had a metal panel over it), a fully exposed ECU (should have a metal box around it), etc... those findings, plus how beat-up it generally is, the whole thing seems beyond investing in fixing for what I'm interested in. The car is great for someone who wants to build a single-seat racecar or autocross, but that's not me. I just like cruising around and hitting the curvy back-roads

4) '90 Grand Marquis Station Wagon. Bought this from an estate for scrap value in "we don't know, we think it ran when parked three years ago" condition. Amazingly, after a new battery, fresh gas and oil, it runs perfectly fine. Registered and have been driving it around with no issues other than a stuck fuel-level float. People love it, looks like something out of the National Lampoon movies. It's all Foxbody Mustang engine and parts, so sourcing things from junkyards or aftermarket is a breeze. Does have the MR2 issue of anything model-specific is basically unobtanium, though (yet another car with eternally leaky windows, in my case). Currently working on cleaning up the interior a bit and getting a trailer hitch installed; will end up using it as a tow vehicle/parts runner for my other automotive escapades.

----

So that's about where I'm at now. Will probably be selling the Miata soon, which clears up room in the driveway/garage. With the Miata gone I have no stick-shift vehicles or vehicles with popup headlights, which is nigh unacceptable in my opinion!

I really like the NA Miata, but it's just kind of boring; everybody does Miatas. That makes me less interested in buying another one, and more interested in going back to my list of "this would be cool to own" cars:

• Mazda RX7
• Nissan 300ZX Z31 (the ugly 80s one)
• Datsun 240Z-280Z
• Toyota Supra mkII (the ultra-boxy 80s one)

Of that list, I hear the Datsun Z-cars have really bad rust issues, the 300ZX is plagued with 80s electronic gizmos that no longer work (and is a very heavy car, more touring than sports), and the mkII Supra is almost impossible to source parts for. That leaves the RX7.

So I've spent the past couple days reading up on the RX7 on here and other sites, to try to get a better feel for big issues people have. There's the obvious (apex seals, sourcing rotor housings, etc.) but it sounds like the cars are pretty solid other than the engine (and the engine is pretty solid if well taken care of), and relatively easy to work on. Seems tempting enough. That left me trying to decide which RX7 I would be most interested in, which I approached:

1) SA/FB - Lowest power, but simplest design. Like the styling. Potential for carb or FI options; some swaps from FC parts, LS/SBC fits if everything goes kaboom. Some, but not much, aftermarket support.
2) FC - Less simple, but more luxurious. Some problems with 80s electronics, though mostly just cold-solder joints? Styling is okay. My family had a Turbo II back when they were new and would probably love to see/drive an FC again. Good aftermarket support.
3) FD - I'm not made of money, not happening anytime soon.

----

I'm leaning SA/FB, as I think I like the simplicity. Some things I've read also compared it to being basically a 70s-designed Miata. I'm a bit worried about parts availability, though, so I'd love to hear input on that (i.e. what are some commonly-needed parts that are impossible to find?) if anyone has any.

Also not sure, assuming SA/FB, if an earlier model would be better (12a, probably carb), or the later 13b/fuel-injected models would be preferable. I'd like to learn some more about carb applications and kind of lean that way, but 13b-based stuff I'd imagine is much easier to source parts for (and is, from an engineering standpoint, probably better). Anybody have knowledge of the reliability of fuel injection on these earlier FI models? Early-80s FI to mean means obscure computer, and that's potentially a negative. Is the carb all mechanical, or does that have computer controls too?

If I did go FC, I'd probably go for a non-turbo model just because of price. For the FC-knowledgeable crowd, are there any big drawbacks on the NA models, or generally, what are some things to watch out for?

All in all, this is a very long-winded way of saying hello, and asking to please share your knowledge with me! If you were just getting into the RX7 community, what are some things about these cars that you'd like to know? What are some costs to watch out for, or things that might be a deal-killer on purchasing? A lot of information on these forums is from a decade ago or more, and prices/availability change a lot in that kind of time!

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

Welcome to the board.

There was a time I wanted a Mk1 MR2 (Supercharged or not), but those days are behind me now. I still like them, but simply wouldn't have the time for it in my life now. I do still think about someday getting a VR6 car (GTI or swap 24v into an Audi chassis). I think the M1 Miatas are my favorite generation so far. Have nothing to comment on the Ford. At any rate, I respect your past a great deal.

Now on to the Rx-7 stuff ...

I will break it down like this:
1. Gen 1 cars (SA/FB)
The Good: They're nice cars and are very reliable when sorted. They don't require much to have fun - get exhaust, some suspension and good brake lines and pads, and you're set! There's still support out there for those items, and I suspect that won't change. If you're into major mods, then there is NO support. You're going to have to go custom for almost everything. The advantage you have is that pretty much everything you can think has been documented somewhere, so (money aside) there's no reason for you to stress unless you want to.

The Bad: They're old. The 12As are good engines, but they're worn. No new parts for them, and what's out there is getting more expensive with the hour. The same goes for the S3 13B. Every so often a set of rotor housings will pop up, but I would never tell someone to wait for it to happen.

Overall, if you'll be vested in the car, then go for it. What I mean is if you plan to do work yourself or you have the income to pay someone that knows the cars intimately, then go for it. If the thought of buying a whole car just to supply parts to yours sits well with you, then go for it. If not, then pass. They're only going to get older and if you get a 12A car and want to keep it that way, then you may find yourself in a real pickle someday. Housings are scarce (and expensive), but the problem will eventually be rotors! If you get an SE, then at least you have newer 13Bs that will drop right in and you'll never miss a beat.

2. Gen 2 cars (FC)
The Good: These are good cars, too. I'm sure they're more capable than the Gen 1 cars, in general, but not much past measuring tools. They have a stronger aftermarket presence, but generally speaking, the aftermarket has moved on, so don't think that you're going to find an awful lot out there. There is a Turbo model and performance on them is significant over the N/A. You get fuel injection - real stuff, unlike the GSL-SE, that involves ignition as well. 13B parts are still available and you can even get away with replacing some parts on the car itself with FD parts.

The Bad: As you mentioned, they had the 80s gadgetry - so replacing those may prove a task if you get one, and have interest in or need for even a partial restoration. They can be reliable when sorted as well, however (and this is just an opinion on my part) I think more of them have been abused than the Gen 1 cars, so it may take more to sort one day for day and dollar for dollar. The T2-specific parts (tranny, rear end) are nowhere as easy to find as they once were. My guess is they are probably going to be quite expensive if you do find them!

Overall, you're fine getting an N/A if you just want the car for the rotary experience. If you are at all interested in building a monster for the street (or anything over about 200 whp) then just spend the extra time and coin to get a T2.

Clarice

Thanks for the reply. Some follow-up questions, if anyone has more info...

Am I understanding this correctly to say that a 13B from an '84/'85 SE is not the same engine as the 13B found in FC models? That they're wholly incompatible parts-wise, even machined parts like rotor housings?

It seems from some digging that the fuel injection on the SE models is a Bosch-derived "L-Jetronic" system that is analog based. This system sounds super janky, and I assume this is what you meant when you implied the GSL-SE fuel injection as not "real stuff".. My understanding is that FC 13B's then are instead a more traditional electronic fuel injection, am I correct in that statement?

Sounds like the SE model might be the way to go though, if you can drop in a 13B from an FC. I'll have to hunt around the board and read up on what's involved to do that.

------

One more question for anyone... what's the feeling on FC convertible models? They seem significantly cheaper than any other FCs I've seen. I'd imagine the power top is a nightmare?

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

They are the same, but at the same time, they are not the same. The simple breakdown of that is this: shafts and ancillaries are interchangeable. The housings are not (due to water seal location). Rotors can be swapped between them, but only in pairs though because they use different apex seals. Intakes are a bolt-on affair, but they are vastly different setups.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry about the way I stated it. I'm not a fan of the fuel injection on the SE. Actually, I'm not a huge fan of the FC injection either, but I do like it much better than the SE's.

As I implied, the SE might be worth the extra effort to find and the extra cost if you are looking to keep the car somewhat original-ish. Don't get me wrong, there are ways to keep a 12A alive as long as the rotors are kept in good health, but with an SE, you can find usable/buildable 6-port 13Bs all day - at least, you can for now. If you don't care about 12A-car vs. 13B-car, then any SA/FB will do because 13Bs will keep them alive.

The swap itself is not hard, and like I said before, just about everything for a Gen 1 is documented and preserved. Obviously, it's easiest to do with an SE, but for a 12A car, you will need an oil pan and mounting bracket. That's pretty much all you need to get it bolted in the car.
------