Who is using Haltech Elite + Water/Meth ?
 

Hey guys,

just looking to gain some knowledge and ideas on how some of you are using water/meth injection with your Haltech Elite, and how you have it setup. i will be adding an AEM V2 kit soon for some added safety and cooler temps.

i seem to be finding alot of people saying NOT to tune the fuel and ignition for the added W/M, and some people saying that you absolutely have to advance timing and pull fuel when spraying to get the most out of it.

Experienced users please chime in.

It all really depends on what you need from the WM system. If it's purely just for safety, you'll lose a small bit of power and run richer but you still get all of the good stuff that comes with it. If you want to run more timing and slightly leaner AFRs, I would definitely recommend having your failsafes set up properly. The key to AI seems to be failsafes and the more layers of protection you have, the better. Having AEM's flow gauge sensor hooked up to the ecu along with the failsafe on the normal controller would be most ideal as the controller won't be able to sense mechanical issues with the injector itself in case a filter clogs or check valve remains open.

Personally, I'm gonna run mine when I go single later this year with the AEM controller failsafe low side output to trigger additional fueling and reduced timing under boost via map switching on the Elite. I'll probably invest in a flow gauge too as a failsafe gauge is cheaper than an engine rebuild.

I would skip the AEM V2 kit, and just buy the parts needed for the WI (everything minus the AEM controller), and have the haltech control it. Chris at LMS EfI can help you sort everything out.

I run WI in ADDITION to an already tuned setup. If you tune your setup when using WI, you risk your engine in the event of a WI failure. I would rather lose some HP and use the WI setup as an additional fail safe.

I will be using a Haltech with W/M. I am using a mechanical pre-turbo setup which utilises pressure from the compressor to deliver pressurised air and water via an air atomising nozzle. No tuning is necessary (other than nozzle selection) because water delivery rate ramps with the pressure delivered by the turbocharger to the injected water/air mix.

My setup uses a MAC valve in the feed line, which the Haltech will trigger on/off at a fixed pressure setting (probably around 8-10psi) so that water injection is only delivered once intake air pressure reaches the pre-defined activation point (otherwise water consumption rate is too high and atomisation will be sub-optimal at lower pressure levels).

The tank has a level sensor, which will be wired to the Haltech as a digital input, and then used to trigger a secondary boost map table which limits boost to wastegate pressure if the tank is empty.

searching back thru your other posts it appears you have a ball bearing Precision so let's just look at 550 rw rotary hp...

it takes approx 4340 CC per minute of gasoline to make 550 which is 133,503 BTUs.

let's assume you are using 100% water as injectant, 500 CC.

there are about 8100 negative (cooling) btus in a gallon of water.

you are injecting .132 of a gallon per minute.

that's 1067 negative/cooling btus.

1067/133,503 = .008% of your fuel.

no need to change a proper tune.

the real key on tune is timing and the varying quality of gasoline. the knock system will provide the guide.

as you said in post one you are doing AI for "safety and cooler temps" do it right and you will get what you want.

good luck.

That is one way i was considering setting it up, with the failsafe output from the controller activating a 4D fuel/ignition map so when the fluid is low or there is a pump failure it runs a non-W/M tuned map.

i did read alot of mixed reviews on the AEM failsafe flow meter/controller. but im considering added that as a final safety layer.

Unfortunately i already have the whole V2 kit. but i will look into having the Elite control the pump.

Howard thanks, i am using a Precision 6266 GENII BB, stock ports. you say 100% water, do you recommend not using the methanol mix? is running water only the safest option?

my understanding is that adding that 50% methanol will require taking some fuel out of the mixture to hit the AFR target, but the methanol is what essentially gives you the lower IAT's right?

it all depends on what you want to do w your setup. water, if properly fixtured, will solve the detonation challenge and keep your internals clean. water meth is a step up in that it will lower your IATs which becomes more important as power level rises as well as add some octane in your combustion chamber. if you run the normal amount of water or water meth the amount of BTUs disappearing if you have a delivery failure is so little it will not harm your motor immediately.

i have run, since 2003, nothing but meth but i am running 500-600. i run between 1000 and 1500 ccs of meth so it is meaningful as a portion of my total fuel. i can make 600 on 93 octane pump gas with no knock.

when we talk about safeguards we need to understand that at high rpm there are 60 power impulses per second. the response to knock needs to be on the next rotor face. how many seconds does it take to cut boost or flood w fuel?

the only response can be timing which is at the speed of light. the knock system response gets it done on the next rotor face.

for most of us, AI keeps our motors clean and eliminates knock and does not need a retune as it is a modest factor within the motor.

I'm doing this,

Pure water, 600cc on 4 rotor, so essentially 150cc per rotor. 200psi pump, triggered by Haltech Elite 2500 DPO output. The output just grounds a relay, which flips the pump on.

Cheap, simple, effective. No solenoids no fancy stuff. Just a check valve inline with the nozzle up at the engine.

I used to like 50/50 w/m but tired of having to blend the map, or worry about progressive control. failure risk etc. Running water only, will keep the knock down, will not change the AFR much at all or the tune if it ever fails, is essentially free to refill. And my outlook on this stuff after years of rotary is that if you're running a boost level that depend on WM, then you need to strongly consider changing to e85 or race gas. Water for extra safety/protection

Good luck!

David Mazzei

Some great info here guys, thanks alot. it sounds like it just depends on how risky i'm willing to get. the safest option is clearly to run pure H20 as there is no timing advance or fuel trimming involved. however my main goal was to lower IAT's in the hopes of getting a little more power, so i may still go the 50/50 route and bring a block of wood to knock on for every drive :lol:

is there any power loss associated with the 100% H20 method? i'm guessing the trick is to not spray too much?

Yes there will likely be a small power loss. But if you have a really solid setup, you may be able to push a little extra boost without fear, which ultimately nets more power in the end.

My personal choice is to always keep boost below 12psi without AI on gasoline, but I will run up to 16psi with water-injection or 50/50 water meth. 16psi without water, would make more power. 16psi with only meth would make even more power. And 16psi with only water+93 would make the least power. However, I would be too afraid to really beat on a car without the addition of the AI over 12psi. Ultimately, the 16psi with water-only is still greater than 12psi with no AI. If that helps in any way cool! Just my logic, and there's many opinions on it, all equally valuable.

"is there any power loss associated with the 100% H20 method?"

if you are using around 500 cc of water the loss of BTUs, and therefore power, is just under 1%

the reason most want lower IATs is to decrease the possibility of knock.

if you want to make more power the safest way is to raise the boost and keep timing and fuel conservative.