Typical VE numbers
 

New to Haltech / VE tuning, just looking for someone with experience to give some advice.
I should probably just start a "help me" Haltech thread, but for now I'll stick to individual topics as they may be easier to reference in the future!

Anyways, I have a large street port 13B-REW with an S366 SX-E turbo (9180, 1.00AR), full 4" exhaust (externally dumped gates), with a large air filter outside of the engine bay. I am just wondering what a normal VE range could be for this motor.

I'm seeing around 120% VE out of boost (.85 lambda target) and close to 150% VE around 8psi boost (.80 lambda target). 91 pump gas.

I haven't caught anything else out of the ordinary while tuning but am just wondering if these values are typical or could point to a configuration or fuel issue?

Fuel pressure has been good and I have a decent amount of pump and injector. Bosch 044 feeding surge tank with TI E5LM (BKS1001) and 1000/2600 injectors. I have fully populated the injector characterization with dead time, flow rate and pulse adder as per injector dynamics and don't see anything unusual in the config.


VE is new to me so I just wanted to see if these values would raise any flags for an experienced tuner. From the other maps I have looked at, it looks a bit high, but not astronomical.


Thanks!
Alex

I am also new to the VE tuning coming from old school injector times/duty cycle maps. I don't think that is too far out of range from what I am seeing on my 1500. The more accurate the VE inputs are the tighter those numbers will fall into line. Check correction maps too, Sounds like you have less fuel flow than entered somewhere so you need higher ve numbers to get in range. You can adjust your fuel pressure up, adjust your values in ecu or just leave it alone and have high VE numbers.

Your injector data is incorrect. These are abnormal values.

Thanks for the input! Where'd I go wrong?

ID 1000
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...3300543316.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...94b9d6388a.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...c824928332.jpg

ID2600-XDS
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...557f60625f.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...2e218c6a06.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...04efc2fa1e.jpg

Alex

On my stock port s5 motor I'm in the ~120% range at 11 psi boost on a s369 1.0 AR twin external gate. Cruise is in the 80-90s.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...b602def071.png
After briefly reviewing your 2600 numbers are slightly off from the ones on the website ID2600-XDS | Injector Dynamics

I cannot find the same chart though for the 1000s anymore...I have 1050x and 1700xds in mine.

I added the voltage and pressure increment values for all the data points available

Here is a screenshot of my 1700xds data:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...3c27168d38.png

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...1e28323120.png

I found the ID 1000 Numbers

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...6eebebc5f3.png

I used the newer data specific to haltech elite that comes in a spreadsheet, it may have been entered in a different unit initially but it should be correct as long as my x and y axis’ are set up correctly. I bought the injectors from T1 so I’m pretty confident theres nothing goofy there. I’ll dig in a bit deeper next week but maybe I’m still a bit rich compared to the target. Plugs look good,I’ll review fp logs again next week. Motor seems to be responding well otherwise, so I guess I’ll just keep truckin if nothing else is weird.

I guess it could be the O2 sensor, thats a bit shittier to rule out with the plugs looking nice.

120 is normal when the dead time is incorrect,

ignore the data that was not made with your ecu and wiring and raise the numbers and you VE will come back to where it should be

Not sure I follow, I used the data found here:

https://help.injectordynamics.com/su...075013-haltech

I understand (and agree) with your position on dead time variance across platforms, but at the moment I assume this is the best data for my injectors and ecu as it comes from ID for the Haltech.

Higher overlap will contribute to a higher VE (at least in the fuel model), and I did change the opening and closing of my ports. Just not sure what to expect there.

My hope is that the VE table is used for the main fuel map only, and isn't critical to something else as long as the fueling is sorted. Hopefully not used in some hidden calculation that will trip me up later.

i dont care where the data came from it is not correct for your car.. any data that is not made with your power supply system, your ecu and your wiring is not correct data,
ive tuned thousands of cars with injectors that came with data and not once have they ever been correct and you will always notice it at idle and low loads where the dead times make up 85% of the injector open time

more over lap will generally reduce the ve numbers not increase the as the manifold pressure will drop and the engine is less efficent.. i would expect an idle number between 40 and 50 for a street port motor with correct dead times

I have 62% @ idle with the current injector characterization.

I'm eager to learn and willing to put in the work, but have no idea how I would go about calibrating dead times with everything installed in the vehicle.
You may have the experience to determine what's best, but I would probably do more harm than good. Is there a decent/scientific approach to this?

I get the feeling that "in the ballpark" should be fine for me. I'm not looking for that last 1% off the top, just trying to rule out any larger issues.

I guess my big question is, how much will it matter once the base fuel map is sorted out? Is my time better spent manipulating the injector data first or just getting the tune dialed in as is?

A decent street port would have a higher VE (outside of vacuum), no? The VE numbers I posted initially were the max values, around 6500rpm.

Thanks

100%

I think when you initially described your VE numbers, you left this part out.

These are far more reasonable and you're on the right track. Proud of you, buddy.

Here are some stock/streetport VE shapes for various injectors on Haltech:


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...c032b1f034.png
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...93f2fd60ff.png
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...edbba3cc08.png
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...56a9b123a2.png

By contrast, here are some Bridgeport and Semi-PP shapes:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...ad33b98e48.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...2d6c73b84f.png

you need to raise the dead times before tuning, dead times have the greatest effect in the low PW areas., rasie them until you have a 40% number at idle,

street port may have a higher ve number under full load, but that will be effected by more than the porting

Okay, so it looks like a few experienced people are in agreement...

I could play with the dead time until my idle is between 40-50% VE, but I don't think blindly changing values is wise.

I'm willing to experiment if anyone has some sound advice for me.. Anyone be willing to suggest the next steps? Any other areas I should be looking? I'm determined to sort this out and tune the car myself. :)

Thanks,
Alex


Edit: Should I try increasing the whole dead time map at once? Or play with the cells at idle / battery voltage until I hit 40-50 and scale an overall correction afterwards? I'm all ears, thanks guys!

add 0.3 to the dead times to start with on the primary,

the secondary is a little different to work out and you will only be able to work that out once it stages,

simplest way to work it out is this

goes lean when stages then comes back to correct too low dead time on secondary
goes rich when stages then comes back to correct too high dead time

my guess is looking at your numbers its going to go lean when stages and you will add over .5ms to the secondary dead times to get it right

Here's something that you need to remember and WHY certain things are the way they are...

None of us tune with the same target lambda values.

Your 40-50% VE Target is if the Target Lambda were at STOICHIOMETRIC AFR for that given Fuel.

We can all manipulate these programs to our will and make badass cars come from them, but this is the grit of it all.

You're doing fine, Alex. Reach out if you need anything.

Thanks Ryan. :icon_tup:

I picked the initial values because I had looked at a few cells that were dead on target. Obviously it would look wonky if the target is 14 and its tuned to 13.5

I had it roughly tuned just into positive pressure and it felt good, here's a few more captures now that I'm back home (also using a zero load map) :

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...8ec97be811.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...d191d50d6f.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...840e582171.jpg


I know it needs work but I think I'd like to see the VE a bit lower in the areas I have adjusted... I have not ruled out the O2 sensor but it seems to run happy and respond as I would expect. While I'm new to the Haltech, I've spent a few years looking at a wideband :)

you are wasting your time tuning with those dead time numbers, that VE table is way off you should never see 160 ever

Lots of rain here, have been trying to get the car out for a few nights. Will do some tinkering as soon as I can but the weekend looks rain filled too. :(

Those tables are the result of a few street pulls only. I didn't bother spending much time on it as the numbers looked high. Was a risky post (I know its ugly), but I don't mind getting razzed if I learn something. It is untuned beyond the 6psi column, but when I had it out it was asking for ~150% around 8psi, that's what started this all.

Appreciate the input.

Alex

not razzing at all mate just trying to help

raise the dead times, you should not be seeing even 130 on the ve table

This is a good approach.

Haha, don't get me wrong everyone has been great (and helpful) so far. Thanks for the encouragement to work on it myself :)

I spent a few hours on the car this weekend.. Found a broken L wire on the alternator (despite it charging fine), and a small calibration issue on my fuel pressure sender (insignificant). Have been looking hard for a smoking gun but haven't found anything, so I will play with the dead times this week.

I guess if I increase all the cells in the dead time table by an equal amount, it is essentially just increasing the minimum injector pulse width and shouldn't have any negative impact if I don't go nuts. I'll start with the primaries only and see how that carries through to the higher load area of the map..


I initially set up a stage 2 flow percentage table but I suspect that could complicate things if the secondaries need tweaking. Best to turn that off for testing? Should I be using that table at all or just tweak the staging duty cycles? They're currently still at the 88% default, should I kick that down to ~50%?