Haltech Haltech Elite needs overboost ignition cut feature
11-08-17, 09:21 PM
#5
I've got an extended email chain with Haltech about this and its apparently under consideration, and its been a while since I have heard from them.
There is a real need for this update, but its not about comparing ecus. The adaptronic barely does any of the primary functions consistantly so I couldnt give a rats *** about it cutting ignition for overboost. They'll put in anything without thought overnight.
With haltech you have to give a rationale well defined engineering explanation with justification then it pass through a few boards, r&d, and then coding verification and implementation
Which is also why it works like it should...all the time.
I'll post my proposal and the haltech response tomorrow. I think we just need more noise behind it and it will happen.
Skeese
There is a real need for this update, but its not about comparing ecus. The adaptronic barely does any of the primary functions consistantly so I couldnt give a rats *** about it cutting ignition for overboost. They'll put in anything without thought overnight.
With haltech you have to give a rationale well defined engineering explanation with justification then it pass through a few boards, r&d, and then coding verification and implementation
Which is also why it works like it should...all the time.
I'll post my proposal and the haltech response tomorrow. I think we just need more noise behind it and it will happen.
Skeese
11-08-17, 09:44 PM
#7
Below is the email I sent back in November.
Some of the logic was derived from my excessive amount of time, research and yes reading (call me old school) here on the forums.
The immediate response to that email was that it warranted consideration and had been forwarded on to the head office. This was followed by a response from Matt Leicher of Haltech who further stated it had enough merit that he put in a request to Haltech R&D to add the ability to choose between ignition or fuel cut for the overboost feature. According to him, there was no ETA or guarantee it would happen, but that the R&D group would evaluate the request and hopefully implement it into an upcoming software update.
IF you choose to write/email/comment to Haltech about this, the internal issue number is #24579.
Until now, I didn't think about the methanol users still flowing even though the ECU is cutting fuel, which could make for a serious short cycle lean condition being fired. I'm sure somebody out there with a high power water/meth fed motor could write them too and add that fact.
Skeese
Hello Haltech!
I recently moved to a Haltech 2500 Elite to power my 1993 single turbo semi peripheral port rx7 and have some concerns regarding how the overboost fuel cut on the Haltech Elite may affect a rotary motor, as there is no option to use an ignition cut instead. I'm sure you may already know most of what I have below, but as an engineer I am very detailed in my approach and do believe this would be a critical improvement to the ESP software.
The rotary motor by nature is extremely susceptible to damage from detonation. Regardless of the seals and additional strengthening the motor is built with, detonation can still lead to apex seal failure effectively "blowing" the motor and requiring rebuild.
While an ignition cut is makes for a much more violent seat-of-the-pants cut than a fuel cut does, I believe an ignition cut is easier on the motor and decreases the risk of motor damage. OEM manufactures use fuel cut rev-limiters in an effort to preserve the catalytic converter and take advantage of the less violent fuel cut to adding both longevity to the catalytic converter and overall smoothness of an oem vehicle. Most rotary cars that have progressed to the level of an aftermarket standalone ECU are not going to be running a catalytic converter, and even if they are a new cat is a cheap replacement compared to a blown motor.
In a rotary motor, the injectors are positioned above the intake ports in the lower intake manifold where the staged secondary injectors are nearly 4" away from the actual intake port of the motor. My concern with a fuel cut in this application is that when the fuel is cut there is still residual fuel present in the intake runners from the last spray cycle as. After the fuel is cut in an overboost cut situation, there is a possibility that this fuel will be ingested into the motor in the next intake cycle effectively shorting the next combustion cycle and causing a lean mixture being loaded into the combustion chamber set to be ignited since the ignition is still live. Given that this is happening due to an overboost condition it is safe to say this is going to be at boost level capable of causing motor loss should a lean condition occur.
If fuel injection goes short when under boost, the only thing that is going to save the motor has to happen on the next rotorface and you can see how cutting fuel due to an overboost condition could effectivly cause a fueling shortage. That being said, the only action that is capable of reacting fast enough to counter a lean fire on the next rotorface must is an electrical one, such as an ignition cut that immediately cuts the spark to the plugs on the next cycle once the boost threshold is exceeded. When you cut ignition, all you have is fuel acting as a cooling liquid passing through the motor and likely igniting in the exhaust causing a backfire, which is no big deal and completely normal for a healthy rotary anyways.
While some people say an ignition cut is hard on a motor due to the abrupt shock of cutting spark, I believe a fuel cut can lead to motor failure…which IS very hard on a motor.
It is for those reasons that I believe it would be a great option for ESP to give the user the ability to set the overboost cut to be an ignition cut or a fuel cut.
Seth Allen
Mechanical Engineer
I recently moved to a Haltech 2500 Elite to power my 1993 single turbo semi peripheral port rx7 and have some concerns regarding how the overboost fuel cut on the Haltech Elite may affect a rotary motor, as there is no option to use an ignition cut instead. I'm sure you may already know most of what I have below, but as an engineer I am very detailed in my approach and do believe this would be a critical improvement to the ESP software.
The rotary motor by nature is extremely susceptible to damage from detonation. Regardless of the seals and additional strengthening the motor is built with, detonation can still lead to apex seal failure effectively "blowing" the motor and requiring rebuild.
While an ignition cut is makes for a much more violent seat-of-the-pants cut than a fuel cut does, I believe an ignition cut is easier on the motor and decreases the risk of motor damage. OEM manufactures use fuel cut rev-limiters in an effort to preserve the catalytic converter and take advantage of the less violent fuel cut to adding both longevity to the catalytic converter and overall smoothness of an oem vehicle. Most rotary cars that have progressed to the level of an aftermarket standalone ECU are not going to be running a catalytic converter, and even if they are a new cat is a cheap replacement compared to a blown motor.
In a rotary motor, the injectors are positioned above the intake ports in the lower intake manifold where the staged secondary injectors are nearly 4" away from the actual intake port of the motor. My concern with a fuel cut in this application is that when the fuel is cut there is still residual fuel present in the intake runners from the last spray cycle as. After the fuel is cut in an overboost cut situation, there is a possibility that this fuel will be ingested into the motor in the next intake cycle effectively shorting the next combustion cycle and causing a lean mixture being loaded into the combustion chamber set to be ignited since the ignition is still live. Given that this is happening due to an overboost condition it is safe to say this is going to be at boost level capable of causing motor loss should a lean condition occur.
If fuel injection goes short when under boost, the only thing that is going to save the motor has to happen on the next rotorface and you can see how cutting fuel due to an overboost condition could effectivly cause a fueling shortage. That being said, the only action that is capable of reacting fast enough to counter a lean fire on the next rotorface must is an electrical one, such as an ignition cut that immediately cuts the spark to the plugs on the next cycle once the boost threshold is exceeded. When you cut ignition, all you have is fuel acting as a cooling liquid passing through the motor and likely igniting in the exhaust causing a backfire, which is no big deal and completely normal for a healthy rotary anyways.
While some people say an ignition cut is hard on a motor due to the abrupt shock of cutting spark, I believe a fuel cut can lead to motor failure…which IS very hard on a motor.
It is for those reasons that I believe it would be a great option for ESP to give the user the ability to set the overboost cut to be an ignition cut or a fuel cut.
Seth Allen
Mechanical Engineer
Some of the logic was derived from my excessive amount of time, research and yes reading (call me old school) here on the forums.
The immediate response to that email was that it warranted consideration and had been forwarded on to the head office. This was followed by a response from Matt Leicher of Haltech who further stated it had enough merit that he put in a request to Haltech R&D to add the ability to choose between ignition or fuel cut for the overboost feature. According to him, there was no ETA or guarantee it would happen, but that the R&D group would evaluate the request and hopefully implement it into an upcoming software update.
IF you choose to write/email/comment to Haltech about this, the internal issue number is #24579.
Until now, I didn't think about the methanol users still flowing even though the ECU is cutting fuel, which could make for a serious short cycle lean condition being fired. I'm sure somebody out there with a high power water/meth fed motor could write them too and add that fact.
Skeese
Last edited by Skeese; 11-08-17 at 09:47 PM.
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11-09-17, 10:58 PM
#8
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
I can tell you, after speaking with Matt in person that there are a lot of great things in the pipeline. If we are expecting this implementation on the ECU's software (ESP), it'll likely come within the next 5-8 months when the next wave of updates hits us. Cruise Control via DBW is definitely getting added in that same timeframe. That's all I want to say.
11-11-17, 05:10 PM
#10
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
We both know Haltech is going to take good care of us. They're committed to making superior products, so this is one of the things to wait out.
11-12-17, 02:30 PM
#11
Again, we can't compare cars when you have an entirely stock FD besides fuel & motor vs. a completely redesigned chassis, suspension geometry, running gear, fuel system, circuit breaker electronics, etc.
We both know Haltech is going to take good care of us. They're committed to making superior products, so this is one of the things to wait out.
We both know Haltech is going to take good care of us. They're committed to making superior products, so this is one of the things to wait out.
back to topic. Although I'm not in the super secret knowing club, I do expect the update will come.
Skeese
11-17-17, 01:52 PM
#12
I've got an extended email chain with Haltech about this and its apparently under consideration, and its been a while since I have heard from them.
There is a real need for this update, but its not about comparing ecus. The adaptronic barely does any of the primary functions consistantly so I couldnt give a rats *** about it cutting ignition for overboost. They'll put in anything without thought overnight.
With haltech you have to give a rationale well defined engineering explanation with justification then it pass through a few boards, r&d, and then coding verification and implementation
Which is also why it works like it should...all the time.
I'll post my proposal and the haltech response tomorrow. I think we just need more noise behind it and it will happen.
Skeese
There is a real need for this update, but its not about comparing ecus. The adaptronic barely does any of the primary functions consistantly so I couldnt give a rats *** about it cutting ignition for overboost. They'll put in anything without thought overnight.
With haltech you have to give a rationale well defined engineering explanation with justification then it pass through a few boards, r&d, and then coding verification and implementation
Which is also why it works like it should...all the time.
I'll post my proposal and the haltech response tomorrow. I think we just need more noise behind it and it will happen.
Skeese
This statement is so far from the truth! Seth the amount of false information that you spew out is ridiculous.
11-18-17, 10:50 AM
#14
**** it. I'm out. I don't know why I bother with any of you people. Outside of David, and a random handful of others pushing it the whole platform is just a big social circle jerk full of the same old build over and over fueled by ignorance and slow fake news dumbassery.
difference is, they don't waste their time arguing with you pawns.
ban me, or say whatever you want. I'm out
Skeese
Last edited by Skeese; 11-18-17 at 12:05 PM.
11-23-17, 06:38 AM
#16
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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RGHTBrainDesign (11-23-17)
11-23-17, 06:36 PM
#19
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
If you knew anything about Skeese and I, it's that our differing opinions collide time and time again based on our alternative Engineering perspectives. It's funny how you brought us to agree on just how much of a ***** you are. Thanks!
You have contributed ZERO to this thread in regards to Haltech Support.
Sorry, David, let's get back on topic.
11-24-17, 08:21 AM
#20
Speaking of back on topic, I emailed Haltech yesterday asking for an update and added a bit about meth injection and the harm of cutting fuel with ignition and meth still running. Not expecting a response over the holidays but will update when I get something.
Skeese
Skeese
11-24-17, 05:08 PM
#21
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Australians don't have Thanksgivings. You're in luck!
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RGHTBrainDesign (11-26-17)
