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Well gotta say as much as I think I still have an issue. Its fun trying to figure it all out. The data logs help significantly! But I still haven't found the "perfect" solution. This would be so much easier with 2 people out on an open road. Not solo driving about city - suburban streets
Skeese. I think Im getting exactly what you got previously.
But Just some results and findings for everyone's information.
Drive 1 - 25% on stage and 15% Duration
I was finding I was getting a very quick lean spot (not that bad) then rich there after. From test runs (trying static load) I was averaging about 3% on th lean spike and -15% then rich. then 1 second after the rich would drop to -11%
Drive 1 - 25 on stage 15 duration
So as Chris noted I dropped some of the settings
Drive 2 - 10% on stage and 10% Duration
Results: The lean spot got worse +6% . The rich spot after was better -11% and the zone about 1 second after the rich was still about -11%
on stage 10% and duration 10%
Drive 3 - 40% on stage and 1% Duration
So since the lean got worse and the rich were better Id thought I go more extreme to test it.
Mixed results. Feels much better at higher RPM. I don't notice it struggling / jumping between cells stage as much = so it felt better on the street whic overall good result but still feels rich.
Results: The lean averages +2% . The rich spot after was better 10-19% and the zone about 1 second after the rich was still about -9% So the duration part is likely better and I need to work on the VE map a bit more now.
43% on stage and 1% duration
Conclusion:
Ill drop the on stage % back a bit and keep the duration at 1% and see how I go.
I'm guessing in the 3rd run I get some wet walling from getting a bigger 40+% hit which makes it go rich.
BUT:
Is it possible to make it flat? or am I chasing a dream that cant be achieved?
Is injection angle going to play much of a role in this? wonder if I should test that as well?
As skeese has raised previously the duration is a pain in the ***. Would be good to be done in time.
I cant be the only one with 1000cc and 2000cc setup on E85. Would be good to hear what others are running (I never had this big an issue on the pump fuel maps, I think because it was only in boost the transition hit)
Really seems like the staging could be done a bit more smoothly in the software? maybe so the stage 2 comes on more softly (ramps in from 10%) rather than trying to kick in at 30% min duration.
Is there any other way to do it?
Hmm, what have you tried with Enrich Rate/Synchronous Gain on Transient Throttle Settings? *None of this will matter if you're just doing a WOT Pull.*
1) Reset the Stage On Fuel Enrichment and Enrichment Duration Settings
2) Set the Maximum Stage Duty Cycle Percentage to what Chris suggested or attempt a lower max, higher min, which worked well for Skeese.
3) Feed in Transient Throttle > Enrich Rate and Enrich Amount (Synchronous Gain) until you eliminate the lean spot
Realistically, you're heading in the right direction. I'd do as much Open Loop (VE Table) tuning as possible and stop asking the ECU to compensate for you.
1:All of these are "almost" static load cased. (note the TPS in image below) Im trying to just hold the rpm and "just" kick it over the 80% duty threshold just to see what its doing.
Havent even got to the transient stages yet
2: yeah i'll give that a try. Even if it doesnt do it, will be good to see how the data changes
3: as noted above it shouldn't influence what Im doing for now. This is a cruise / static state (and was very very obvious on the street! not pleasant to drive with at all)
4: good point I should turn off the STFT's while I do this.
I should be able to get a cruise in tomorrow night so hopefully more results. Bit hard with a toddler as well
So I got a quick cruise in and really it raised a bigger question of WTF is going on with my step in the VE table. Something is wrong and it's not the onstage enrichment or duration.
This is with closed loop and STFT off. (I played with a 70-10 staging, 80-20, reduce the enrichment back to semi stock settings as well)
Instead of trying to see what feels the worst and see whats causing it. I tried to find some situations where I couldn't feel it. And this got me back to having an issue in the VE map.
1: If I hold a "cell" (say 140 VE) and it's on Just the primary injectors - All good. Holds the AFR. = 12arf
2: If I hold that same "cell" (Still 140 VE) - And the secondaries kick in - and I hold it - ARF = 10.4
3: If I accelerate a bit and it moves to the cell one over (VE 120) = ARF comes good and comes back closer to 12. that that's a huge step in my VE chart. That just shouldn't be there and I'm guessing it should acturally be lower (like 110!)
4: As noted wasn't even existent in my pump VE map.
So something is wrong. As the VE map shouldn't be stepping down like that - OR having that much of a step change that much. The calculated fuel flow looks smooth. So why is the VE stepping based on what the injectors are doing?
I might try the hatch forums now. Feeling a bit stuck.
Smart *******. there is a small error there (The New ID info is much easier to interpolate as well)
I still want to pull my primaries. I have a feeling there not ID's but thats what I was sold.)
All fun and games
Edit: yep.... not ID's on the primaries. At least the secondaries are right. Just bought some 1050x ID's
Why is your injector data lacking fuel pressure as another table? WTF. That's not a "professional" way of doing things.
If you arent logging fuel pressure, then that isnt needed. I agree that if you do have a fuel pressure sensor this is the ideal way to set it up, however if the fuel system is properly sized and the regulator does its job then your fuel pressure and resulting flow should be at or close to the setpoint and the actual benefits of having the fuel pressure vs flow table are minimal. Regardless I dont think they were what was causing the issue nor believe this was a WTF kind of error or practice.
While its not ideal, variable fuel pressure conditions at the rail would likely trend relatively consistantly with boost pressure and the small variences would be made up for in the VE fuel table. Many a car has been tuned correctly using a single injector flowrate at a set pressure. Definitely not WTF worthy.
If you arent logging fuel pressure, then that isnt needed. I agree that if you do have a fuel pressure sensor this is the ideal way to set it up, however if the fuel system is properly sized and the regulator does its job then your fuel pressure and resulting flow should be at or close to the setpoint and the actual benefits of having the fuel pressure vs flow table are minimal. Regardless I dont think they were what was causing the issue nor believe this was a WTF kind of error or practice.
While its not ideal, variable fuel pressure conditions at the rail would likely trend relatively consistantly with boost pressure and the small variences would be made up for in the VE fuel table. Many a car has been tuned correctly using a single injector flowrate at a set pressure. Definitely not WTF worthy.
Skeese
I think this could go back to Chris's thread about the Big Injector and Fuel Pulsations Issue. Do we have an adequate damper in the system? The 1050x on a rotary is pretty ******* tame, but the reason why I believe a fuel pressure sensor and this type of graph is necessary is due to the larger injector sizes we run and the pulsations they create. At least if it DOES fluctuate, we know how to control the injector.
Well Im still waiting on the injectors to arrive. So no updates.
I wasn't logging pressure previously so I couldn't map that previously. (I do on my Defi Gauges - but not in the haltech). Ill get that corrected.
But even if I was logging pressure, I wanted to map the pressure differential. Not the flows. As the bigger item is the differecnial pressure of the injector. Not just the rail pressure. Unsure if I can map that or not. ID's now give all that data now which is helpfull.
Well Im still waiting on the injectors to arrive. So no updates.
I wasn't logging pressure previously so I couldn't map that previously. (I do on my Defi Gauges - but not in the haltech). Ill get that corrected.
But even if I was logging pressure, I wanted to map the pressure differential. Not the flows. As the bigger item is the differecnial pressure of the injector. Not just the rail pressure. Unsure if I can map that or not. ID's now give all that data now which is helpfull.
Any update Havoc? Interested to know if you corrected your problem...
yeah looks like it was the wrong injector data all along was my issue!
In saying that I had a small engine fire that was completely unrelated to all of this! so Project has been on hold for a bit. Can't wait to get it all back and get it up and running again.
yeah looks like it was the wrong injector data all along was my issue!
In saying that I had a small engine fire that was completely unrelated to all of this! so Project has been on hold for a bit. Can't wait to get it all back and get it up and running again.
Nice! I figured that's what it was. Nothing beats a good ole fashion simple solution.
your going rich after it stages is the dead time on the secondary injectors is not correct,
the dead times from ID are useless as you do not have the same drivers, same fuel system pressures etc, lower the dead time on the secondarys and it will stop going rich.
15% for 10 cycles is a good number to start with on the staging enrichment
your going rich after it stages is the dead time on the secondary injectors is not correct,
the dead times from ID are useless as you do not have the same drivers, same fuel system pressures etc, lower the dead time on the secondarys and it will stop going rich.
15% for 10 cycles is a good number to start with on the staging enrichment
ID provides dead times for various fuel pressures up from 43.5 psi, the idea being you load them all and use a fuel pressure sensor so the ECU is applying the correct injector dead times no matter the fuel pressure offset from base.
I have found that when you have a lean / rich patch in the half second following staging, you add stage on enrichment and extend the duration until it balances. If the problem is too severe to balance there without crazy numbers, lower your staging point so the primary/secondary injector duty convergance isnt so as drastic (primary duty dropping from 80% to 30%, sec coming up to 30%) then balance any lean patch remaining with enrichment a duration again.
ID provides dead times for various fuel pressures up from 43.5 psi, the idea being you load them all and use a fuel pressure sensor so the ECU is applying the correct injector dead times no matter the fuel pressure offset from base.
I have found that when you have a lean / rich patch in the half second following staging, you add stage on enrichment and extend the duration until it balances. If the problem is too severe to balance there without crazy numbers, lower your staging point so the primary/secondary injector duty convergance isnt so as drastic (primary duty dropping from 80% to 30%, sec coming up to 30%) then balance any lean patch remaining with enrichment a duration again.
Skeese
ID's dead time data is useless to anything other than the ECU and power supply they did the dead time calculation with, which from memory is a Motec M800, will it get you close.. yes it will, is it going to be 100% correct on a haltech elite No.. this is half the problem with so called "tuners" these days, they rely on data that is incorrect for their application and have zero clue what to do about it,
going rich or lean for the half a second after staging is fixed with the staging enrichment and duration, but outside that .5 sec is it all down to the dead times, and if they are incorrect it will not work properly IE put the dead times off ID's website and you will have issues
03-06-18, 11:03 PM
