E8/FC Timing and Idle issues
 

Hey guys,

Time to start my own thread for this issue.

I can't get my car to Idle.
I can start the car an keep it running with my throttle ~20%.
Everything is wired as HITman suggests, with the exception of the wire differences for E8. For those I have:

TRIGGER
Yellow - trigger pos(red CAS)
Blue - trigger neg(white CAS)
Green - Home pos(green CAS)
Blue - trigger neg(white/black CAS)

IGN
IGN1 - Lead Coil Trigger
IGN2 - Trail Coil Trigger
IGN3 - Trail Toggle

I zeroed my timing per HITman's instructions and had to set the trigger angle to 42 deg to get the 5ATDC mark lined up!!!
I couldn't check my trailing coils because the timing light doesn't seem to pick them up. I know they're firing though, because I watched them fire strongly on a spare plug.

At first, I suspected a vac leak because I was reading minimal vacuum on my pressure guage, but I replaced all gaskets and hoses and checked the (unconnected) BAC and AWS to make sure they weren't stuck open. I can't think of anything else that would cause a leak.

The last time I started it, I saw 5-8 PSI of vacuum, but it still would not run on it's own.
At low RPM (<1500) the idle pulses a few hundred RPM.
Above that range, it just runs rough as hell.

So, I'm back to looking for the source of my timing problems.
I'm attaching some pics with a datalog of the home/trigger, and my setup.

Any help is appreciated!

OK,

So I started getting a little frustrated while playing with the timing settings.
I started with the base 2 rotor map from Haltech.
I changed the trigger settings to the Multitooth Rotary setup as in HITman's procedure.
Then, I took the trigger angle down to 10 and it started running smooth!
It was showing a nice 12 PSI of vacuum!

After a few more settings changes, I ended up with a trigger angle of 100 and tooth offset of 8 and it would idle on its own after warming up.

This doesn't make any sense!

When I followed HITman's zeroing procedure, I matched the pic of the factory CAS stab verbatim, so I'm starting to question the pulley marks. Since there were no colored marks on the pulley, I put marks on the only two noches on the pulley (they looked about the right distance apart to be the right marks)

I want to make sure it is zeroed properly so I have a point of reference.

Could my pulley be wrong?
If so, how do I realign it?

Maybe I'm just not understanding something.

Any suggestions?

First question, was your engine running before you installed the Haltech, so as to have the crank pully installed wrong?

2nd, would you still be stabbing the CAS wrong? since you have to put in such a high or low value in the trigger gain.

Use the Mazda method of installing it and see if you're getting some teeth off. Tooth offset for that way is 11.

I'm pretty sure it's right.
Here are the pics.

>>First question, was your engine running before you installed the Haltech, so as to have the crank pully installed wrong.

Yes, the engine ran great.

Wow, that's a rusted out pulley!
Is this an FC 13B?

If you're still running all the stock pulleys, Mazda typically puts two white paint marks on the front pulley so to give you a good idea of where TDC is.

BTW, did you connect all the E8 ignition input wire for wire?
The E8 runs a slightly modified wiring, and all 4 wires off the CAS do not just get wired directly to the E8 ignition input wires.


-Ted

Haha, yeah its that notorious Michigan rust.

I noticed those white marks, but didn't know whether to trust them.
As it turns out, they are aligned with the notches/marks shown in the image you saw. I guess that's extra proof that I'm using the right marks.

Claudio set me straight on the CAS wiring in a separate thread.
I have the wires connected as described in my first post.
The red (12V) wire is unused.
I think the datalog that I attached should tell the story for an experienced tuner.
To me, I just noticed that the trigger signal is counting 12 times as fast as the home, so it seems right.


This is why I'm so confused.... I've done everything by the book, but my timing isn't even close to what the procedures describe.

Ah, I just clicked on those pics underneath...
Something fishy is going on.

You see right at "12.19", the HOME (red) signal is significantly reduced compared to the other peaks.
The TRIGGER? (light blue) signal kinda barfs - i.e. the "step" pattern is interrupted.
:(


-Ted

Try to start it with the trailing plugs disconnected. If starts and runs OK, change the teeth in the ignition settings from 11 to 5 and see if it works that way with the trailing plugs connected.

I noticed that too, but I wasn't sure that the Haltech's datalog may have just missed a point. It happens with some of the DAQ's we use at work. Or maybe it was EMI on the CAS wires.

Either way, that blip (which only occured once in 15s) shouldn't affect the timing, should it? It might be symptomatic of another problem though.

I played with the trigger settings for an hour today while datalogging the home and trigger counters. I've tried every combination of home and trigger gains(from 0 to 6) and filters that I could think of, and I can't get rid of the trigger dropout seen in the (above) attached datalog.

I'm thinking it's either malfunction of the pickups on the CAS or excessive noise affecting the unshielded portion of the CAS wires (a 4" section where I connect to the Haltech harness).

Does anyone agree?

I think for next weekend I'm going to buy some kind of shielding tape and possibly a new CAS.

Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks

Why dont you try to get a new CAS, one that reads a nice steady signal from both trigger reluctors?

Also, have a read at this website, it has good trigger info.

http://www.teamfc3s.org/info/articles/demystifying.html

Your trigger signal seems to be within tolerance. Have you try to run the engine with the trailing plugs disconected?

Yes, It ran about the same. Timing was the same.

I'm still going to replace my CAS and install some EMI shielding this weekend, but I wanted to throw this question out there...

We seem to have plenty of E6* experts out there, but those of you who know the E8...
Have you noticed/heard anything that would suggest that the E8 has some sort of inherent delay between its interpretation of the trigger and when it outputs the IGN edges?

This may be why the E6* procedures for timing aren't working on the E8.
I'm thinking if this is a real phenomenon, I might just trash the procedures and trust the timing light.

Thanks

The timing light indication is the important pointer. How much teeth the offset is, and how is the CAS positioned doesn’t really matters as far as the trigger angle is more than the highest ignition advance (and less than 360 deg.) and the firing event is where it is supposed to happen, which is indicated by a timing light.
I had been telling you to try to run the engine without the trailings connected. I had an installation of e11v2 (basically the same as e8) where after setting the trigger in the Hitman’s way, the firing was 180 deg out of phase. The enging still run but VERY roughly. If it was running without the trailings connected everything seemed to be OK. This is so because the leadings are firing in waste spark mode, so it makes no difference if the phase is 180 deg shifted.
To set the trigger correctly you need to hook the timing light to the Front Trailing plug and adjust the lock angles (for the Trailing plugs) in the software in appropriate manner.
I do not think you have a problem with EMI. As far as the datalog shows 12 trigger teeth for 1 home, everything should be OK.

How do I do this if the timing light doesn't see spark on the Trailing coils?
I know that they ARE getting spark because I can watch the spark arc from the coil about an inch to the wire.

Thanks for your response!
I will try unhooking the trailing's again as soon as I get home this weekend.

Just to put a conclusion to this thread (for those that find it while searching)......

I ended up just trusting the timing light.
1. I verified the pulley marks by finding TDC via the procedure at the very end of this page:
http://www.teamfc3s.org/info/articles/demystifying.html
2. I made sure I stabbed the CAS with the "factory" method in HITman's procedure.
3. I shielded the CAS wires with some composite tape (didn't make much difference)
4. I made sure (by datalogging the counters) that my home and trigger signals were good.
5. Using the timing light (as in HITman's procedure) I zeroed my timing. The final settings at a lock angle of -5 BTDC were:
Tooth Offset: 10 (essentially an extra 30 deg on the trigger angle vs 11 tooth offset)
Trigger Angle: 80

I don't know if this difference is unique to the E8, but it works.

It starts rough when cold and takes some finesse to keep it running. After it's warm, though, it idles smooth.
I think these are just A/F mapping and Compensation issues now.

Now I just have to fix the sticking in my throttle linkage and tune the crap out of it.

Hopefully this helps those in the future.