Can't lean out map! (E11)
 

I've been playing with this unit for a few days now and my idle is pretty lumpy (stock ported 13B-RE). My PLX wideband with a brand new sensor is showing 10.5-11.4 at BEST. I can't pull any more fuel out of it without the car instantly dying. If I get anywhere near 12 or leaner, it will shut down.

I'm not sure what the issue can be because it was running perfectly fine on my E6K. All I did was remove that unit and install the E11. Injectors and coils are all wired correctly. It simply won't let me lean out the idle to a reasonable point.

On the E6K I was idling around 13.1 AFR smoothly. The way it is acting makes no sense. I can rev the motor freely with no problems at all. When I have load on the car; however, it will act up. If I am cruising at a steady state, I will get popping/bogging like it is running rich. Most times, the wideband verifies this. If I try to pull fuel out though, as soon as I see any difference on the gauge, it will start bucking wildly due to being WAY too lean.

For some reason, there is no middle ground.

Any help would be appreciated! If it helps, I was running build 35 and on the advice of Chris I dropped back to build 32. No change.

Reese

possibly the primary and secondary injectors are inverted in the wiring harness. it will run and idle but not very well. basically same symptoms you are giving.

try setting them to batch fire first to see if that points you towards getting a little bit more stable of an idle and giving a hint that this is a possibility.

Can you post your map so we can download it and look at it?

I'm at work right now so I'll have to send it in the morning. I get my "lunch break" in a couple of hours, so I'll go out and check the pinouts as Karack suggested. I'll kick myself if it's THAT easy. I know the wires are correct in the engine bay as I redid them twice to be sure.

I still have issues with fuel maps in general on this unit. I'll leave that for another thread, though. Teaser: It involves EVERY single map I've found from well-known tuners having injector times DOUBLE what could possibly run a motor.

Reese

sounds like something basic in the fuel setup, like multipoint or batch mode ( and not full sequential like it should be ) with an unusual ignition divide number

bumpstart,

I've always had experience with the E6K which (at least in my case) always had IGN/2. Going by that, my idle injection time was usually around 3.8 or so.

Switch to now with the E11. I've been told by a number of people, including Scott from Haltech, that the IGN/ is ignored as soon as you click on staged on the Haltech. Every single map I've found online (including my E6K map I imported) is 2x as rich as it needs to be to run my car.

My head hurts....

My Map
 

This is as it sits right now. I know it looks like crap in sections. That's from trying to adjust it on the fly while driving to work. LOL.

You will need to turn on the throttle pump option in the fuel setup page. That's not causing this issue, but you'll need it. Another thing I see that's unrelated to your issue but you should know, leave PWM 1 open for use as a tach output in case you ever decide to run an alternate ignition setup and need it. PWM 1 is the only output that can be used as a tach driver.

What is the resistance of the injectors you're using? Have you measured them?

Chris,

I'm glad you mentioned that since I just got the IGN-1A coils that I'll be installing as soon as I make a mount and figure out the wiring. ;) Thanks!

As for the injectors, I haven't measured them yet but the primaries are factory 13B-RE and the secondaries are low impedance Ford 1600s.

The primary injectors are going to be high impedance. You have the injector current set for 2/.5 amp peak and hold. Your injectors will pull around 1 amp, so you'll have issues on the hold cycle properly controlling the injector. The current setting is wrong for the primaries. The proper setting for the high impedance injectors is 8 amp saturated.

Check the resistance on the secondaries. Most of the 1600s are low impedance. Some are high. If they're high, you'll be good to go. If they're low, we'll address that issue.

I am having a similar problem. My injector times seem to be far lower than i would expect, and very hard to dial in. the car wont really idle any higher than 10 as an afr... it starts to jump all over the place and try's to stall out if i change things too much.

I'm 95% sure the secondaries are, in fact, low but I'll check and post up when I get home in a couple of hours.

If this IS the issue, it's a new concept to me. I never ran into anything like this with the E6K. Were they set up differently, or was I just lucky?

Andy, yep, that sounds a lot like my issue. What ECU are you running? Hopefully, we'll both get this sorted.

I am running an e6x. My injectors are rc650, and the ford 1680's.

The E6K/X uses a different control structure. The setting you have currently just won't work right with the low impedance injectors or with the secondaries for that matter. Ohm, the secondaries and we'll go from there.

Are your primaries low or high impedance?

OK,

The secondary injectors are 4.5 ohms, so they're low as I thought.

I spoke to a local buddy of mine with an E8 and similar injectors. He's running his at 8amps with no issues. Oddly, though, his idle times are closer to 3.8ms. Weird...

That is a very good question! I was operating under the assumption that they were high imp. but that would explain my Idle injector times being so low....

20B10AE,

Set your injector current to the 5 amp peak and hold setting and give that a try. This will allow enough current to support the high impedance primaries during the hold phase and will work perfectly well with the lower impedance secondaries. The other option would be to run the primaries on the 8 ohm saturated setting and rewire the secondaries to run off of injector channel 7 and 8 and set those outputs to peak and hold.

I don't know what your buddies are doing, but 3.8 ms at idle sounds like way too much, even with 550 injectors. I went back and looked at some maps for stock port, 6-port engines with 440 injectors and they idle at less than 2 ms. Obviously, a lot of variables play into the scenario, but you need to give the engine what it wants, not make it take what you think it should want.

What are you using for a wideband? Have you thought that you're may be getting bogus readings? Just from what you've posted, the behavior sounds lean, not rich.

You guys also have to consider what the other correction maps are doing. Your buddies might have everything else zeroed out (which they should not). But it's possible to turn all the correction maps off and need a very high base fuel map to get the engine to run. When comparing things like this, you need to look at actual injector pulse width while the engine is running, not one individual fuel table.

PLX M300 with a brand new (2 day old) sensor. It was reading perfectly fine with the old sensor a couple of weeks ago when I was running the E6K. With the new sensor I've been seeing exactly what I did two days ago before I swapped to a new O2 sensor.

I completely understand what you're saying about the maps, but I wonder why both of the maps I've downloaded from Claudio and Hitman (both maps were for the E11 and relatively stock S4 motors) show "excessively high" injector times. Maps coming from two notable tuners set up like that simply added to my utter confusion. I don't need help in that department. LOL.

Either way, I'll go try the car out today to see how she likes the new injector current setup and get back to you. I sincerely appreciate your help!

check your wiring to your trigger and home. after talking to brian, i think polarity may be swapped, which will throw your timing way too retarded and would explain the problems you are having
For E11, it should be this

trigger+ NE+ BLK (sensor) -- YEL (harness)
trigger- NE- GRN (sensor) -- BLU (harness)
home+ G+ WHT (sensor) -- YEL (harness)
home- G- RED (sensor) -- BLU (harness)

the NE- and G- would normally be wired to the GREEN wires on the PS2000 harness, but E11 uses GND as return, which are the BLUE wires.

Trigger angle 65
tooth offset 10

ive seen a couple incorrect diagrams floating around that has the polarity swapped for the trigger sensor, it had me confused a couple weeks ago when i was installing the PS1k into the FD. but it runs perfect now with the setup above, the only difference is BLU/GRN between E11 and PS1k

Jamin,

I ran into that when I got the new harness, and I did figure out the Yellow/Blue, Yellow/Blue. Check with a timing gun, it's spot on as far as timing goes.

Why don't you come down to Columbia tomorrow and give me a hand? :)

Just a lengthy recap and update to this issue:

This is sort of a good thing/bad thing subject. The background is that I'm running a 13B-Re that I've been driving for about a year with an E6K. 550/1600 injectors, 60-1 turbo, 3" exhaust, etc. It was running GREAT. It would start almost immediately, it pulled like a bat out of hell... most everything was tweaked just right. Then I decided to move up to an E11.

All I did was remove the E6K and install the E11 with a brand new harness. All of the wiring AND pinouts have been verified both my myself and another local Haltech user just to be sure everything was right. I tried importing my E6K map, but when I tried to start the car I immediately fouled my plugs. I tried another set with the same results. I finally determined that the map I've been using was delivering more that TWICE the amount of fuel needed. The problem with that is that my injector times on stock 550cc injectors was around 1.3ms at idle! This definitely did not seem right. I even tried building a map completely from scratch, entering my injection times and everything else by hand just to ensure there wasn't a problem with the import feature.

I was told by tech support at Haltech that they would expect to see 1.5ms at idle with those injectors. If that is correct, why does the base map supplied by them start their injection times at 2.8ms (idle). That's more than double what I was seeing! My fuel setup is sequential with staging of the secondaries at bar 12 (roughly 2.5psi). The good news is that I got the car fairly drivable with the map.

As I mentioned, I have started from an absolute base map and set everything by hand, ensuring that there are no correction maps altering what I'm seeing, with no change. My fuel pressure at idle is about 42 psi. I'm running IGN-1A coils in direct fire mode. My AFR at idle is typically 12.1-12.4.

To add more to the situation, I upgraded my injectors this past week in hopes that perhaps something was wrong with my old ones. I now have brand new Bosch 725/2200cc injectors. Obviously, these are going to lower my injection times even more. My issue with this is the fact that my injection times once all injectors start firing is now down in the area of .772ms! This is below the threshhold of these top of the line injectors! Guys who are running 550/1600cc setups are seeing roughly 4.5ms once all injectors start firing. Even if I take 30% off of that (which is way more than the difference between those and a 725/2200 setup), I would still see about 3.1ms injection time when all are starting to fire.. (this is assuming staging at about 2.5 psi).

With all of this, I'm trying to determine if there is something internally that could cause this specific issue with my unit or if it is something else? Outside of this nearly unusable fuel metering problem, the ECU seems to be performing just fine (no ignition problems, etc).

I have included my current map so you can see what I'm dealing with.

Have you confirmed the secondaries are not firing at idle?

Yes. I had it idling happily (somewhat) with both secondaries disconnected completely. I also checked the pinout at the ECU side of the harness to ensure there wasn't an error at that end of the equation. Also, the Haltech registers roughly 2% duty cycle on the primaries and 0% on the secondaries at idle.

what coils are you running, did you install the ign-1a's yet? maybe something is making it fire every other time, which would make it want to die and idle rich. like if you were running stock coils with direct fire instead of wasted

are you running a CAS or a REW pulley? have you checked your trigger sensor wiring with a meter? if your trigger is wired wrong, this is the thread where someone was having trouble with their trigger polarity backwards, and it threw the timing off.. check out Steve Kan's posts

https://www.rx7club.com/haltech-forum-62/platinum-sport-fd-trigger-ignition-settings-907932/

also, does your tach match the haltech readout, or is haltech generating your tach signal?

i cant look at your map, for some reason my laptop (xp) cant install the e11 software