RGHTBrainDesign

RGHTBrainDesign

RGHTBrainDesign

I know there isn't any interest on here (yet), but I'll continue developing this as I get further along with the ECU.

Things like MAP vs. RPM vs. Ethanol Content for OMP Control (essentially a multiplier based on fuel flow) are still in the works.

Currently I'm doing my Fuel Pumps in this Configuration:

Fuel Pump 1 = Primary Bosch 044 Fuel Pump on Hella 20A Steady State Relay
Fuel Pump 2 = Internal Swirl Pot/Surge Tank Lift Pump Walbro F90000274 e85 450lph on Standard 30/40A On/Off SPDT Relay
Fuel Pump Speed 1 = Secondary Bosch 044 Fuel Pump on Standard 30/40A On/Off SPDT Relay
Fuel Pump Speed 2 = Tertiary Bosch 044 Fuel Pump on Standard 30/40A On/Off SPDT Relay

Fuel Pump 1 Setup:

• Prime Time 3.0s

Fuel Pump 1 Table (PWM):


Fuel Pump 2 Setup:

• Prime Time 3.0s

Fuel Pump Speed 1 Setup:

• Prime Time FP Speed 3.0s
• High Speed Post Start Time 0.1s
• High Speed Hold Time 0.0s
• High Speed Enable RPM 2500 RPM
• High Speed Enable Duty 45% Injector DC%

Fuel Pump Speed 2 Setup:

• Prime Time FP Speed 3.0s
• High Speed Post Start Time 0.1s
• High Speed Hold Time 0.0s
• High Speed Enable RPM 4500 RPM
• High Speed Enable Duty 70% Injector DC%

I'm going to talk to Nick and Scott about the Speed 1/2 Prime Time values, as I'm not sure if that's triggered when the vehicle starts or if it's before every rapid transition (high speed) that I request the pump on. At this time, they are not "estimated fuel flow" or "MAP" dependent, which I'll be requesting as an addition to the firmware. For now, you have a general idea of the multi-pump configuration though.

Cheers,

Ryan

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Admins, Emtron should definitely get its own section. Can that be created?

Thanks!

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Please enlighten me as to what exactly qualifies an ECU as 'motorsports' grade as opposed to 'commercial' grade

RGHTBrainDesign

We'll talk about it at the Hotel.

One isn't better than the other.

One Perspective:
It was purely an opinion, but the 2500T I would classify as motorsports grade vs. the 2500 being consumer grade. I based it on feature base extending beyond a standard engine control and into a body/full vehicle control with versatility (fuckton of I/O). Normally Integraded 3-axis, Integrated Lambda Control, etc.

Another Perspective:
The Consumer Grade should be easier to use, better UI, and more refinement on easier/simple setup, while the Motorsports Grade has the ability to setup complex feature trees indefinitely.

Another Perspective:
Some companies start at the consumer and move upward to elevate themselves in Motorsports Competition. Other companies start in racing with the most basic UI and as they develop they branch down to consumers. Life Racing -> Syvecs is a perfect example of this as the company branched off and created an Enthusiast Level division.

Whether it's deemed Consumer or Enthusiast or Motorsports is up to you. I purely meant it as how the companies started and their target markets. Take it as you wish.

You're going to chew me out either way. Hey, at least this is getting me started earlier.

dguy

iTrader: (8)

Looks rad. It's funny but we've effectively come to very similar engine control setups on paper such as similar sensor packages/configurability (though I just source direct from Mouser rather than deal with AEM/motec/etc's markup BS), DBW, ECU (I've been trolling for an M1 as I'm more familiar with Motec gear however I'm curious to see how your experience goes with an Emtron). Differences are FB vs FD, 13BT vs REW and you're running a bigger EFR. Once we get the shop configured I'm hoping to make major headway on the FD.

P.S. The only thing that has me laughing is that I see an Electromotiv product in there :P I know its just a piece of steel but ever since I had to assist on a few TEC2 diagnostics/repairs I swore I'd never work with that shitbox company ever again. I may be biased.

RGHTBrainDesign

When do you think completion of your beast will be? I've continually had setbacks with my daily driver needing fly cutting on the pistons, custom HG, and a full transmission rebuild.

Aren't you out in SoCal? Once I get some more seat time with engine calibration, I'll be happy to figure out a drive soon.

I've been working with Nick (EMtron USA), HeaderShield for protecting the Dual Lambda Sensors (hexagon temps can only be 600C on Bosch LSU4.9s), and of course Tony Szirka of UMSTuning who will be my (final) calibrator. Tony is now an EMtron dealer too, which is awesome.

New Model:

Pre-TB 5 Bar MAP
Plenum (Post-TB) 5 Bar MAP
eMAP 5 Bar
Dual Lambda Bosch LSU4.9s
Dual EGT
Oil Pressure 10 Bar
Fuel Pressure 10 Bar
Coolant Temp
Oil Temp
Fast Air Temp

We know there's going to be a high eMAP due to my turbine housing design, as well as power falling pretty flat on the top end, but we're going to run with it. We've come too far now to switch out to a Gleaseman without gathering data. Is the ultra-responsive 0.865 A/R EFR9174 IWG configuration going to be quiet AND potent at the same time? Time will tell.

The next phase of the build is actually getting a CLR 13BT Large Streetport motor (w/ Bridgeported Secondaries) + Big Runner Gleaseman Manifold. That'll be 700whp+.

For now, I'll focus on integrating technologies and maximizing efficiency of what we have here. The calibration process is definitely a fun one.

Cheers,

Ryan

dguy

iTrader: (8)

Oh it's going to be quite a while, its completely stripped of everything at the moment (there wont be a factory wire on the car unless its a pigtail from a component and even then all connectors will be swapped out with Deutsch unless its impossible to do so) and is currently in storage. Also since the passing of Jim Hagerty and my partner buying the old Mariah building a lot of focus is going to be turning that into a somewhat builder/racers 'coop'. There have also been setbacks with the supercharged 3 rotor and its trigger setup, development and testing of the 9180 3 rotor, and THEN after that it's time to receive one of Defined's 4 rotors to put into another chassis. It's going to be tough to make the time but I will :P.

Also yeah, I'm in SoCal (Santa Barbara specifically) and was actually going to be taking a permanent position up near you but 2 months in I remembered why I left the tech industry in the first place so I bailed back down here to see if I could survive hacking on projects and do contract work. It'd be cool for you to make the drive once we're settled in the shop.

-Dave

RGHTBrainDesign

Dave, my goal as of today is to have the car driving to SevenStock in November.

Ordering the rest of the sensors now.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Has anyone actually ran a rotary on on of these Emtron doodads yet

RGHTBrainDesign

Honestly, I don't know. I told you I wouldn't report back until I made some serious progress though, and I'll stick to my word.

What I do know is I made a few requests for control and additions to the software and they showed up on the new firmware update. To me, that's incredibly valuable. OMP and 3rd Stage Injection are in the works now, although there's a work around for OMP control as-is and the fuel model is precise enough to where I don't technically need a 3rd stage.

You're going to point out to the fact that Haltech Elite already has everything I'd need (yes, it does) and that this firmware update was only made because something was lacking (it doesn't have to be a unique logic tree anymore). I wasn't expecting to go with anything other than the Elite 2500 w/ I/O Box until March when I explored a bit more and found something more my taste (EMtron).

Happy with the decision, now I just need to finish the car up so I can go buy it... Oops, yea, I'm broke as ****.

KYPREO

All of these ECUs come from Australia and no one in Australia uses EMtron that I'm aware of - whether rotary or otherwise, but definitely not otherwise. You probably already know this, but if you do a bit of googling you'll see that there a lot of allegations of shenanigans around EMtron, Link and Vipec and the players around them in Australia and New Zealand.

I think part of the reason why EMtron has failed to establish any sort of following is that for many years its website has been hopeless with very little technical information or public pricing information. Not helped is the fact that when you find out the price, you realise you can get equivalent Motec units (also Australian!) in that price bracket, with Motec being able to do all the rotary stuff out of the box (noting however that with Motec you need to pay extra to enable certain features). Oh, there is also the fact that Haltech and Microtech are so well supported by the best rotary tuners downunder. Adaptronic is based here too, but there are far fewer tuners here who use and recommend. Adaptronic has found itself more of a niche with rotary tuners in the US, as well as the guys who like to do their own tuning (self-tuning is far less common in Australia, as we usually have fairly easy access to experienced rotary tuners dotted around population centres than is the case in the US - where knowledge and the population is far more dispersed).

Your takedown of the various ECUs amused me a little I must say. Yes I know Microtech isn't feature laden - I share many of those sentiments and would skip right past the Microtech to a Haltech. But as it stands right now - there are infinity percent more successful rotaries running Microtech than Emtron, since Emtron is running on a big fat zero. Even if I'm not even going to be a customer, I can see that for 30 years Microtech has been at the forefront of the leading performance rotary cars in Australia and even today are powering probably half of the dozens of sub 8 second drag cars and successful circuit racers - certainly way more than any of the other prosumer or so-called motorsports grade brands listed. What the Microtech units lack in logging, engine protection, telematics, 2 step etc etc, people generally get around with add-on units and do perfectly fine.

None of this is to say the Emtron product is no good of course - someone has to be the pioneer and no one pushes boundaries by being a sheep. I am genuinely following this with interest, as I have your whole build to date, and wish you every success. I am also a fan of all the love for our home-grown products. But perhaps the slander of the competition was a bit unnecessary and peremptory when there is no proof of concept yet.

billyboy

Most likely one to have done a rotary is Scott himself, he has done more than a few improved production rx7s in his time, but imagine the emtron is a bit sophisticated for that purpose....although that doesn't stop people running the latest and greatest motec on them! Tuning base as Kypreo points out, is likely to be the biggest thing holding them back - I can see him following in the footsteps of Aubert in that regard - ironic given the background.

RGHTBrainDesign

I am well aware of what you're talking about and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Business is Business.

The price point is substantially lower than MoTec given the software being open ended. KV8 is $3-4k less than a fully optioned M150. That's not close.
There's a reason as to why Adaptronic isn't supported universally (yet).
Microtech just plain works. It's a zero frills, reliable unit, as I said.
Haltech spends a big chunk of their business income investing in advertising while Emtron does not. They heavily screen dealers, tuners, etc as to their capabilities and understanding.
I think the US has a HUGE problem with "tuners" who may have been around for years but still don't know simple/basic engine function. Manipulation and running a business on fame instead of by skillset is a huge problem here. As such, the sharper ones of us who have been to a tuner or two (quite a few in my case), can see deficiencies on where most of these hacks cut time and poorly piece together a tune on a car. From that information and by trial and error, we just decide to tune ourselves.

The point was to make you laugh, and hopefully see that I'm dipping my toes into everyone's water. It's pretty common to see someone throw out an opinion on a product but never actually have worked with it... I'm sick and tired of doing HPTuners. Sick and tired of dealing with Cobb for certifications to tune a customer's car and pay every time to be able to download their basic software. Emtron was OPEN ENDED and I spoke directly with some higher ups who helped me understand just how unique I could build my tune to be. This is a hobby that I'm transitioning into a side-business, and it's really cool to have a software controlling my engine in which I can ask ANYTHING of it.

****, I really appreciate that. Finances hit me SO hard this year that I've had to put everything on hold. The car should be back home by October though...regardless of whatever fabrication gets done. Time to live my dream of being a drug dealer...

RGHTBrainDesign

So this calculated table is for an end-all answer to an old debate of the IGN-1A Coil being a good choice for a Rotary Engine. Here are some notes as to what I did.

• Q: Why did you subtract 2.9ms?
  • A: Spark Duration is 2.9ms +/- 10% on these coils. So unless you want to ignite the next homogenous charge, you better subtract that value as to have ZERO chance of doing so.
• Q: What's up with the 25%, 40%, 60%, and 80% Duty Cycles?
  • A: I like to alter coil dwell by both RPM and MAP. Under low boost I would think 40-60% DC is fine depending on RPM. Low load and cruise I'd want the coils to be cold since they don't have to break through so much air and fuel. Under HIGH loads, I'm aiming between 60-80% DC.

Personally, if you're over 8K RPM on a high boost application, CDI is hands down, the way to go.

If you're locking your coil dwell at 3ms, you shouldn't rev over 9K RPM.

On track setups where you have LONG durations of WOT, you're absolutely going to fry these suckers in a hot engine bay. Pay attention to placement and provide cooling passages.

Keep sharing... We have a niche community full of a LOT of wisdom. Don't be swayed by bullshit or marketing. Do the math, enjoy the design process, and never stop pushing the envelope.

dguy

iTrader: (8)

I'm somewhat close to pulling the trigger on my ecu for the next ECU project and I'm still waffling on an m150 Dev or a KV8 but goddamn, I finally looked at the pinouts for the KV8 and the way they populate/discriminate what ins/outs are on what connector got my dick hard from a harness fabrication perspective.

RGHTBrainDesign

M150 Dev is twice the price and comparing the software in detail last week, I honestly don't feel it's twice as well developed.

I try to say this a lot and it's really how I view people and their contributions.... Anyone can put together hardware. It's relatively simple to get heat sources dealt with and organization throughout. Hardware in itself is CHEAP. What you pay for on an ECU is the development time put into Software. You can see some companies trying to operate from "Red to Black" within a VERY short time period and that's normally where you see them put out a new HARDWARE product and their SOFTWARE is greatly lacking. Not naming names, but you've seen enough of it on Rx7Club to know what I'm referring to. I think what Scott and the staff at Emtron did well is they invested a MASSIVE amount of money into the software end and are not even close to reaching "black" financially. You can see that they're slowly advancing in marketing, but it's not the forefront. The quality of product comes first (from what I see).

There's still some ironing out that needs done to really tailor this ECU to Rotary Engine applications such as the 3rd Injection Stage (it's somewhat hidden away in this current firmware) and Oil Metering Pump Open Loop Control. It's by no means perfect, but damn it's a nice platform to start from, especially at the pricepoint. I still don't believe there's a single Rotary Engine being run on one, but my perception of the market is small.

If you need more outputs, the KV12 and KV16 aren't very much more. As for Inputs, you're looking at CAN stuff which is extremely expensive still. A good bit less than an E888, but far from economical. Data however is priceless.

The pinout for the harness is downright beautiful by design. Seriously, makes you scratch your head and wonder what some of the other companies are thinking...

dguy

iTrader: (8)

I've looked at the PCBs of MoTeC stuff and its almost solely due to how they're laid out and and to mitigate EMI/heat/ease of repair if something fails in motorsports. They're really quite beautiful.

With regards to the maturity and price of the ECU it's a development project so while cost is certainly a factor it's all being written off anyway so it doesn't sting as much. Also I haven't gotten to play with an M1 yet so there's an added bonus. The software for non-dev M1s is certainly locked down a bit to keep people using what MoTeC believes is the 'right' solution and strategy for control. The Dev package, not nearly as much but I hear what you're saying.

Either way we'll see how it goes, if I can't decide I'll build provisions for both and run an M600 or SM4 thats sitting on the bench as a stopgap while I ruminate to get the car rolling.

emr39

RGHTBrainDesign

What is your crank trigger setup?
It's good that the ECU went into a Limp Mode to try and protect the engine, but all of this is programmed by your workshop. They should build out logic trees to protect the engine given any odd circumstances. A trigger issue is going to be an engine parts/design/configuration issue, not an ECU Hardware or ECU Software problem. Something probably got loose, Hall Effect Sensor gap changed drastically, etc.

For the injectors to stop firing (Fuel Cut), that's not really smart on a rotary engine either, especially if they tapered. Out of the few engine tuners that I trust, they all suggest either a fuel hard cut or ignition hard cut to "save" the motor given a drastic parts failure.

Keep me in the loop. It's a shame this happened. This is the exact reason why I developed an underdriven waterpump, overdriven alternator, better belt design, full AC/PS compatibility, and better hall effect sensor setup with 5x the OEM fidelity. It'll be marketed and for sale next year given any interest...

RGHTBrainDesign

As a small update to this, I've updated my basemap to include OMP logic so it's based directly on Fuel Mass Calculated Final (grams/cylinder) vs. Ethanol Content and outputs directly as voltage (0-5v).

Why not engine temperature based?
Engine temperature already has an included Fuel Enrichment taken into account on the Fuel Mass Calculated Final EQ.

So, why the ethanol content?
One big factor that I've seen across this entire forum and everyone is always complaining, is the dryness of alcohol fuel is leading to rotary engines "gumming up" or being damaged due to the lubricity of the fuel is changed. So, my approach is to simply increase the ratio of oil injection for higher ethanol content due to fuel dryness compared to Gasoline.

What are you doing for OMP Control during Decel Cut?
The Fuel Mass Calculated Final EQ should still be calculating and not really go to zero during the short period of fuel cut when off throttle, however, I also plan on adding a condition here of "If Fuel Mass Calculated Final EQ = 0, Set OMP to 15%" which will actually be a calculated value of 0-5v since OMP has a minimum and maximum voltage that isn't 0v or 5v. So it's not 5v x 0.15 = 0.75v, because we need to find the floor and ceiling of OMP's control, which I'll explain via AEM's programming procedure below.

Calculated Value of 0-5v Minimum and Maximum Voltage?
Yea, so you can't just tell it 0v = Minimum OMP Flow and 5v = Maximum OMP Flow. Here's how AEM does it, and they're pretty spot on for a lot of things.




There's a lot of small changes that I've done over this year and the car is coming together pretty well now. I'll stay on track, it's good stuff.

I wasn't going to reveal this just yet since it's personal, proprietary information and I realistically need to be charging for this sort of thing, but what the ****, I'm here to help. This is the first half and the other stuff is already (almost) finalized on the PWM end of things.



*Note, this is yet to be modified for the "true" Min and Max values of the OMP as per above. It's just a reference chart that outputs voltage similarly to my thought process. As you can see, as ethanol content increases, so does voltage going to the OMP.*

Please Please Please, ask questions if you're running into issues or want me to do YouTube tutorial videos on whatever logic you're coming up with. Let's brainstorm and make this platform (rotary engines) reliable for years to come.

For OMP Logic, reference these badass links here:

How OMP Works
OMP Declassified - Part 1
OMP Declassified - Part 2
OMP Declassified - Part 3
OMP Declassified - Part 4 Finalization

Slides

Interesting, will follow. I definitely think Adaptronic and Haltech to a lesser extent should have pursued further software development before the release of the M series/Elite ecus. There is still stuff that was available on the 400 series ecus in Wari that you can't do on modular, let alone the flexibility (with some problems that went with it of the 1280 ecu), Haltech a few bits and pieces along the same lines in terms of software capacity lagging hardware. If you are going to pay decent money for a bunch of inputs and outputs you want the software to implement all of your desired control and protection functions. Keen to see how you go. So the software is logic tree/table to table flow type setup or can you code in routines in some form of basic/C+ type language?

RGHTBrainDesign

Quick Updates:

• The Closed Loop Stepper Control was prioritized for the newest Firmware update which should be out within a month or so. OMP is controlled directly from there, so none of this crazy work-around is necessary.
• One downside on the ECU to some is still the fact that there's only 2x Stages of Injection. Tertiary Stage is really only for the Rotary community and that means, besides me (and maybe you), there's zero market.
• Started to build my harness, here's the ethernet setup.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Do you have this funky mystery box ecu in hand these days?

Skeese