Adaptronic, Haltech, PFC and AEM Discussion
 

I am curious about everyone's thoughts on these systems. It seems that some of these systems are based on hype and not on actual capabilities of the unit. I am curious to why someone chose the system they did over something else in the same price range.

I watched the Adaptronic video on flex fuel yesterday. I wasn't very impressed with what you have to tune flex fuel with. A 5x4 correction map for fuel and timing, You can't change the correction blend rate based on ethanol content, and you only have global adjustments for starting, warmup and accel fuel trims. As much as this does do flex fuel your control is very limited. Plus you I don't even think you have the ability to control boost based on flex content.

You can argue that the system is very easy to use because it does not have a very complex range of maps to tune. I understand this but, I am buying a system to tune my car. Why would I want it to be easy? If I am not competent to understand a complex EFI system maybe I should just take it to someone who is capable.

EB Turbo

I know you can set up any correction table you want using the elements in the e1280s. You csn make it simple too by using if/then logic structure.

From what I can find the e1280s is almost twice? as much as the select ecu. I am curious on the buyers thought process when buying an ECU. Whether it is because everyone else was buying it, or because I found X Y Z features to be really appealing, or it was so darn cheap I couldn't resist. I dont see a whole lot of appeal in some of the newer systems coming out. Poor support, Lacking editors, poor hardware...

EB Turbo

I ended up switching to the AEM Series II last summer. A few months later the Adaptronic started popping up on the forum. I questioned weather I made the right choice, because there was a lot of talk about this Adaptronic unit. However, after some more in depth research IMO the AEM comes out on top for features at that price point.

I ended up getting my AEM with a patch harness for less than $50 more than what the plug-in Adaptronics are being sold for. With the patch harness the AEM Series II is plug and play just like the Adaptronic.

For me, the AEM is hands down the better choice for the following reasons...

Available inputs/outputs. With the Adaptronic Select, when using A/C and OMP control there are not any inputs available for adding additional sensors with the exception of wideband via a serial connection. The AEM has 7 inputs available depending on how you set it up. I am currently using dual EGT, oil temp, oil pressure, fuel pressure, transmission temp, and diff temp (wideband has a dedicated input).

Internal logging. Not available on the Adaptronic Select without the addition of a dedicated standalone datalogger. I LOVE this feature on the AEM. The internal logging is invaluable to me because I cant bring my laptop with me on the track. I just set it up for what ever conditions I desire (log above XX% throttle, abve XX MPH, XXXX RPM, etc) then when im done with the session I just download the log. Additionally you can set it up for logging any WOT runs you do on the street that way if anything happens you alyways have logs to look into the issue.

Tuning software. IMO, the Adaptronic software feels like a modified version of FC-Edit. Part of the reason I wanted a new ECU was a better software interface. AEMTuner does that for me.

Automatic map switching. I dont have water injection yet, but as soon as I install it I will be utilizing this feature... The AEM has additional "Nitrous maps" that can be used as a more agressive map when running WI (timing and fuel). You set up an ecu output to trigger the water injection pump, you can tell the pump to turn under whatever condition you like (above XX% throttle, abve XX MPH, XXXX RPM, XXpsi, etc). This then triggers the "WI map" with more advanced timing. You can then wire an input into the ECU from your tank low level sensor. When the tank is too low this prevents the ECU from switching to you more agressive map. This same feature can also be achieved by using the flex fuel maps instead of nitrous maps. If done this way you will have full control over boost setting during WI as well.

Knock control. The AEM has true individual cylinder knock control that will reduce timing to individual cylinders when knock is detected. This feature is self explanitory.

Engine protection features. The latst firmware version for the Series II has engine protection features much like the haltech. It allows you to set failsafes based on oil pressure, fuel pressure, and engine temperatures. It can set a rev limiter or trigger an output to open wastegate, trigger warning light, etc. Additionally it has O2 protection that triggers when your AFR falls outside your predefined "safe" range.



I do not have any experience with the AEM flex fuel control yet, but I will be setting up and tuning a car with it in the next few weeks.

So far I have been blown away with everything the AEM can do. I would have loved a Haltech, but the AEM was a more economic choice for me and Im glad I went that route.

I also was originally planning on the Haltech, but the price was the main deterent. I went with the Adaptronic over the AEM for different reasons.

The biggest reason being future support in the FD/rotary community. With the number of people scooping these up and Andy, the ecu designer, being active on the forums and with rotaries, getting support for the Adaptronic should be much easier than with the AEM. This is one of the things that made the PFC so great.

Another reason is how easy it is to integrate 3rd party hardware. I already run an Innovate LC-1 wideband and am going to monitor egt's with the Innovate TC4. The fact that I can just plug these in via a single serial cable and everything works is very convenient. Also, hooking up an external dash logger is the way I am going anyway and the Adaptronic makes this very easy as well.

I also do not run a/c, the twin turbos, or the OMP, so the Adaptronic will suit me just fine as far as inputs and outputs go. I will be running boost control through a MAC valve using the ecu, will be triggering my water injection system based on boost pressure through the ecu (just single stage), am going to be running direct fire ignition with AEM coils, and will be utilizing the FFE trigger wheel.

Obviously it isn't the perfect ecu because of its price point, but it should do everything that I need it to do (which is MUCH more than the PFC can dream of doing) and I'm expecting to get good support out of Andy at Adaptronic and Elliot at Turblown if/when I need it.

I agree 100% about going with an ECU you feel you will get good support with. Thats actually the reason I purchased the AEM from the vendor that I did as opposed to saving a few bucks and figuring out the patch harness myself. Im glad I did too, because the support has been above and beyond what I expected. Much like what Andy has been doing publically on these forums.

Can the TC-4 datalog ECU parameters along with thermocouple data? Thats really my main issue with the Adaptronic is that once you start adding on all these external devices to achieve the features of other ECU's you will have already spent just as much if not more as some of the other ECU's.

Im also debating which dash to to get for my setup. Im not really a fan of the Racepaq because I dont like the bright blue backlight. I was at PRI this year and saw the AIM MXL2... Im definately holding out until that is released :egrin: It will commmunicate to the ECU via CAN for monitoring ECU parameters.

Technically speaking, the TC4 is just a thermocouple signal converter. All it does is take the voltage from up to 4 K-type thermocouples and convert it to a temperature to output to either a laptop or ecu via serial cable (datalogging software is included for the PC if you are running it stand alone).

One thing that I think is cool about it is that you can configure it to measure EGT (0-1093C range) or other 0-300C range. So I am planning on running and thermocouple in each exhaust runner for EGT's, then run another two thermocouples as auxilary temps (probably turbo outlet temperature and oil temperature).

You can read through the manual here to get more info... http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...TC4_manual.pdf

Innovate does make other products that can be daisy chained with the TC4 and LC1 to log more parameter though.

I haven't figured out the dash part of the setup yet. I really don't want anything complex really...just something that will integrate ecu data with lap data. That MXL2 does look impressive though...any idea on what they will cost?

This is the dash logger I have been thinking of (Racepak G2X)...just sucks because the serial input adapter is an extra $350.

Racepak G2X GPS Based Race Car Data Acquisition System

I am not a big fan of the Racepak systems due to the cost of the 3rd party data cables as well as not having the ability to customize the channels on the data stream. It really adds a lot of money to the cost of the system. You might as well just get a MoTeC CDL3. No limitations on data cables and the GPS features are really amazing.

EB Turbo

Would love a Motec CDL3, but with the track kit it is still twice as expensive as the G2X w/ display and CAN adapter. I wonder if I would really get my money's worth out of it over the G2X.

I am not as familiar with the G2X as the MoTeC CDL3(I am a MoTec Dealer). The G2X system will be about half as much as the MoTeC once you option them out. all of the features that the CDL3 offers way out weigh the price. But for someone on a budget most of the time benefits don't outweigh the cost. For the people who know what they want and want the features, the price difference is not an issue.

The MoTeC has a look up library of GPS coordinates. Once you cross a start/finish line that is in the library the dash will automatically start lap times. This means you will never need to set start/finish line. The library also allows to you set rally stage style coordinates. This means you can start and finish coordinates to a given road or rally stage. We have set this up in customers cars to trigger based on certain mountain roads in the area. This will allow them the get lap times for their favorite mountain roads or even their drive home automatically.

MoTec also has a lot of comprehensive logic statement based user conditional alarms and outputs functions. This allows you to create alarms based on pressures and temps that will allow you to accurately trigger for a failing condition. The dash also has the ability to control low side outputs for fan control, 3rd party camera systems, external warning lights...

EB Turbo

I would say that I know what I want, but am still on a tight budget (worst case scenario). I would love to have a lot of the features in the Motec and would make use of most of them, but don't necessarily feel that I "need" them for my application.

If I could find a CDL3 w/ track kit used for less than $2k I would probably be all over it.

A new CDL3 Track kit retails for $2430. You arn't that far off.. Does the Adaptronic have a CAN datastream output?

EB Turbo

No, it only has serial output as far as I know, however I believe that they are working on a Serial to CAN interface....

CAN is a lot faster than Serial. CAN templates are standard. Serial streams are proprietary. Having a Serial to CAN adapter will work but can be limited in some instances. I guess it all depends on how much time adaptronic wants to spend with figuring it out.

EB Turbo

The more I look at dashes the more I feel like running the Race Technologies Dash4 Pro display with the DL1 GPS datalogger. That way you can piece it together...buy/install the Dash4 and integrate it to the ecu, then when the car is ready for the track, buy the gps datalogger.

http://www.race-technology.com/uploa...o_oled_lcd.jpg

http://www.race-technology.com/uploa...cts/dl1mk3.jpg

while you compare these ecus,, compare apples with apples..
comparing a basic select e420 or select e440 ecu with top of the line motec. haltech . link and AEM isnt a fair comparison

.. the price and equiv for these from the adaptronic range is the e1280

.. you are comparing a basic select which is the price equiv of the haltech sprint
.. and it clearly out-does that,, dollar for dollar, feature for feature

the fact that some self learn and some flex fuel ability is there at that price range is remarkable
.. dont dis that it is chucked in almost free at that price.. limited or not


if you are a high end user that needs endless user config in/outs , CAN bus/ 32x32 maps/ fast multiple logging /self learn for everything
then you shouldn't be looking at the low $$ packages

clearly top of the pop there is the link/vipec ( previously designed as an autronic ) .. and the motec
( which is always a massive ouch when you add in all the "extras" )
note also the better haltechs will expand out with a multiplexing hub for many more ins and outs

as for map definition.. yes its nice to have 32x32 on everything
,, all good ,, if you spend a lot of time setting all that map up..

however.. some lesser ecus with much less map definition do AOK in sales,, and run the engine just fine for most users needs

..a perfect example is the megasquirt .. on paper.. map size/ definition is rather limited.. but in the real world,, quality interpolation makes it just fine for 90% of users who cant tell the difference

add to it the full support shown here on this forum and this underdog is a good thing

same can be said for the select adaptronics .. we have at disposal members of the team willing to go an extra mile and support and further develop the product to your needs

.. dont see anyone from motec.. link/vipec.. or even haltech officially doing that here
( users here are fortunate some of the better private haltech dealers do show interest and help.. but it is not fully official support )

of the low priced ecus.. designed for street / minor comp use and so have zero need for point to point GPS
then the e420/e440 packages are extremely good value .. and have current rx7 club support for development
and have almost hi end bang for buck ( thanks for pointing that out ... by comparing the $1000 ecu with the $1800 ones )

to me.. as a street car user,,and also as someone who constantly has people seeking my experience and advice,, and occasionally for installs
then these are extremely good and valid marketing points

PS.... if you track down the aftermarket EOMP controler.. what was 4 PWM outs and 1 input tied up on all these ecus
can be reduced to just one out ( for mappable control ) .. or NONE ( for fully independent control from provided MAP sensor with user offset and decay control )


ie.. spend about $200 and you can free up 4 and 1 .. or 3 and 1 outs/ins

Is he still making them?

yes,, he took time out to try and work out the check engine light for rx8 and also to make them all plug and play..

too many variables where left to make stuff ups he couldnt control from 3-15 thousand miles away
and so having them plug right in eliminates this .. finding the right connectors was a mission in itself
i expect he will be along shortly to officially launch and to re-promote them as a much better evolved product ( map sensor included )

a few people who where along all the way have been selected for free/ evaluation versions if so desired.. contact him via email and i expect you are already on that list

I think the comparison has been pretty apples to apples so far except for the dash logger conversation...

Power FC w/ Commander and Datalogit: $1300
Adaptronic Select PnP: $1350
AEM Series 2 w/ Patch Harness: $1450
Haltech PS1000 w/ Patch Harness: $1600

Once you get into the Autronic/Motec ecu's, then yes...no longer apples to apples.

And I agree that most people do not need 32x32 map tables. If you took most tunes on a 16x16 map, then interpolate the data between each cell to get a 32x32 map, it will be extremely close to what a full tuned 32x32 map of the same engine would show. I think the 32x16 maps in the Adaptronic give plenty of resolution for a good tune.

then agreed
.. the basic select e420 unit is priced at the sprint level ( sub $1000 )
.. and outdoes it

..of the PnP battle then the e440 is considerably cheaper than the p1000 and arguably almost as capable
it is a generation newer than the PFC and capable of four coil sequential operation
.. and 512 cells per map is plenty for most ,, especially if clock speed and interpolation quality is up there

the aem looks good value as is not a lot more than adaptronic .. it may have a few more features and i never really looked into that till pointed out just now
but it doesnt have a lot of support online right here compared to either the adaptronic or the haltech ....and that may just be the deciding factor for most


the PFC ,, well.. its showing its age and limits with wastespark and that can dictate choices / directions later down the track


.. i think the best advice i can pan out to people about to lay money out on an ecu upgrade is to see how much support it has
,, and how big is its potential to evolve with the car and its changing needs

and .. if you are geographically challenged ...just how easy that is to do yourself with online help..

for most that rules out any ecu that will hold the user back to only wastedspark .. ie the PFC
consider that going from HEI to CDI to bandaid over this
involves expenses and also sacrifices down low that may be acceptable for a competition vehicle but not on a street car

next to consider would be the ability to drive an EOMP .. and still to have the outputs to burn left to evolve with the car..

if its an rx8 then absolutely would be the ability to fully map control the inlet manifold switching ..


for most.. IE.. the FC / FD crew -
you will need fan control.. you will need tacho out .. you will need closed loop boost control ( or even well setup open loop ) .. you may also wish aux fuel pump control

that is the bare minimum
.. extra injectors for e85.. water injection
.. feeding back a wideband signal to log.. and /or a couple of exhaust temp probes
may tax up all the available ins/outs and so it is up to the user to anticipate future needs

consider that the EOMP can be driven externally to free up the 3 or 4 PWMs and 1 input on most ecus
( if they have user config outputs )

and that some ecus ( like haltech ) can multiplex out and thus take in many more aux ins/outs

these are all important factors to consider ..

I have been on here for the past two years supporting the AEM. Go look in the AEM section. I have responded to almost every topic. I live very close to AEM's facility. I am personal friends with a few of their engineers. I also do Beta testing for them. Plus I am the one who developed the PnP for the FD. Besides me being an actual AEM engineer I am the best thing that you can have here.

Now you can still go to the AEM Forum, Talk to any of the 4 engineers that post there. They even have specific Mazda sub forums. You also have the ability to call their tech line. Support is by no means lacking.

You are saying Adaptronic has better support because the owner is on the forum? What about in 3 years? will he still be here? What about all of the new applications that will need developement? You are relying on one person half way across the world for your support? Not very good in my opinion.


AEM has the ability to control the OPM. For the FD application it only uses one output that could be used for something else. If you were to delete the OMP you will only gain one 0-5v input.


In the FD PnP application You have full control over the OMP, Dash, Sequential turbos, All Emissions devices,
plus you still have:
1PWM output
4 injectors
3 coil outputs
1 extra knock input
2 dedicated lambda inputs
2 EGT/0-5v/ therm inputs
Another 4 0-5v inputs
5 low side drivers
3 switch input, 2 of which can be used for digital inputs
dedicated CAN line
Dedicated Serial communications for ECU Comms or 3rd party output

It has enough outputs to run a 20b if you want..

Then we can move onto the actual software. I watched someone have to calibrate their own coolant temp sensor because it was not done for you. It was no where close to where it needed to be. Why should you have to do this? AEM has wizards to select between 18 different coolant temp sensors, 15 different air temp sensors, 26 different MAP sensors, 40+ different coils, 100+ different injectors and 23 different trigger setups.

lets compare tables:

AEM
Fuel 17x21
lambda target 17x21
Timing 17x21
trailing timing 17x21
boost control 17x21 3D
Flex Fuel 17x21
Flex Timing 17x21
Flex Boost 17x21
Flex lambda target 17x21
Staged injection 17x21 3D
Nitrous/water injection/4thD(fuel) 17x21 3D
Nitrous/water injection/4thD(timing) 17x21 3D

Adapronic
Fuel 16x32
lambda target 5x4
Timing 16x32
Trailing timing 5x4
boost control 16 2D
Flex Fuel 5x4 (not avail in select ecu)
Flex Timing 5x4 (not avail in select ecu)
Flex Boost 5x4 (not avail in select ecu)
staged injection (Fixed)
Nitrous/water injection/4thD(fuel) NONE
Nitrous/water injection/4thD(timing) NONE

AEMs Flex fuel control Doubles all of the fuel, starting, timing and boost tables. 15 tables in total. Plus you have the ability to control the blend rate for Fuel, Timing and Boost independently. Adaptronic doesn't even have boost control based on flex content. You cant change the blend amount for any of the tables either.

Adaptronic depends on PID closed loop controls to tune a lot of the functions. You open loop tables do not have a lot of definition. AEM has very comprehensive open loop strategies that in most cased do not require closed loop controls which it still has. Ask the majority of people who just bought an Adaptronic select and see if they know what P, I and, D stand for, Do and how to tune them. With Poor PID settings out of the box it will take a while for someone to dial them in.

I don't think you have any leg to stand on saying your ECU is the best in the price range. By far it is not.

EB Turbo

Since I HATE waste spark my first ECU was a SDS fuel only with a 1st gen dizzy. Then Tech GT. The 60-1 wheel was great. Now Sport 1000 with the FFE wheel. Still no waste spark. No waste spark and a good trigger setup was my main reason for using the above ECUs.
Talked to a few guys who think this ecu is better than that one because of all the options. Then after the ecu is installed, I find out that all the added options they were talking about are not used. :lol:
Just my two yen
chuck

here is the leg i stand on

20 yrs ago i did my first efi install.. analog microtech.. support from them then,, great,, since then.. many many times over.. piss poor

over 20 yrs.. i have installed and tuned many microtechs,, many haltechs and the odd AEM

and here is my experience with the various companies that share the AEM label
( in AUS )
AEM wolf.. 2d/3d ..without doubt the shittiest operating system
, the least reliable ecu ( resets itself ) and the worst instruction/ install manual

AEM stinger 4244I .. a nice ecu..
has a few small drawbacks but excellent value for the $$
...with a better response for direct support
( different company i think but still says AEM on the box )

however.. where i am ( perth oz .. 3000 km from any official dealer )
it proved a little too unwieldy to get the timely experienced help and that unit was tossed
( against my wishes ) for a mictotech that had 4 local dealers
( and because also a racer tuner was willing to cross the country to sort for a 9 second tune )

your box has an AEM label on it..
i can tell you right now.. without being libelous
..as it is a statement with truth

rotary owners in aus ...due of the exceedingly terrible reputation of the previous wolf units and poor company support from AEM aus ...will not even consider anyting with the AEM label

.. FULL STOP ..

that reputation does spill across borders

your company will not sell many as long as that association continues

.. not my fault... but fault of a very poor company in aus .. there is plenty of burned users still about to yell that down from rooftops that will not change their minds in a hurry


// it is not my doing ...this is the result you will get if you take a poll of " what do you think of AEM" where i come from


it would seem that that rep has rubbed onto potential US users by association

they may be different companies .. that is not obvious to potential purchases
but the association is there and until that platform relaunches under a new label.. that stigma is firmly attached to it


excuse me for not looking at the flogged horse ..
i do beta testing and design too ( for the EOMP ) .. Andy does it for the adaptronic,, hell... he designed it

i will have to ask.. in this context who are you in comparison ??



so what makes the AEM engineers jump to your becon with development over and above andys ability to reach over and do it for himself when he sees the need??

you also are a one man band.. that may not be here in three yrs
.. and have zero ability to sit on the board and make design / development directions

do the AEM engineers own and drive a custom turbo rotor?? are they right here,, right now,, changing codes to suit the rotor users??
i think.. not...


i think already this is the answer to the question in your original post

BTW
im not associated with adaptronic.. or haltech in any way
i do personally own one each of these ecus for my own cars

...im also skilled with process loop control and PID controllers .. in class one zone one environments..which are not your average washing machine chips

i am aware of their capability ... and also limitations due to phenomena called ESO
equipment superior to operator

having all these features,, and no support on how to utelise them is pointless.. as a following poster has already tried to point out

the support and success for the limited feature megasquirt / that has exceptional backup and development right here is sure proof of that

the adaptronic is made universal but at the same time relatively user friendly,, and has the engineer at hand on these forums to help and even to push codes around
much like the megasquirt .. but with a few more features and a bit more professional ..



so you are saying that after several yrs developing this ( HIS ) product
.. fitting it to his own miata with a 13bt...BEFORE coming on here
that he is a fleeting visitor that will not develop it further ?
...excuse me.. but he is THE engineer ..
you by your own admission are the whole R@D beta testing crew,, and is not affiliated with the engineering crew

BIG difference right there .....................>

i dont see that AEM engineering crew showing any interest in supporting the sub forums here .. just one soul interested party .. you


.. adaptronic also have their own forums.. AND are here making an effort
.. WHO are you to tell us they will not be here in three yrs time and will refuse to take it further ?

in one week.. there is as many how tos up there than the entire AEM sub forum has but up in the yr to date
more vid lead throughs,, and more new users reporting success

that in itself is telling

you started the topic asking just what it is that attracts the purchasers
.. previous rep.. support .. can do.. future potential.. for the price

this is the answer you keep getting .. i see you dont like it ...

people have weighed up for themselves
.. your support in the AEM forum.. V support form andy and other pro-active users in the adaptronic one

and are now voting with their money ...