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Originally Posted by WondrousBread
(Post 12548229)
This is interesting, I'd like to see how the EPAS pans out.
From a few electronic power steering systems I've driven, I can safely say I don't like it. I'm wondering if that's inherent to the technology itself though, or just the implementation on the particular cars I've driven. I want to see how this goes then investigate PSM drift knuckles or just get a steering quickener. |
Can am side by sides have EPS it has like 3 levels of adjustable it’s really small and light idk how it would feel in a car but it’s able to transmit rough bumps back for better off roaring.
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Interested in the EPAS as well. I picked up a Vue column from a junkyard and was planning to DIY it, but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle with an off-the-shelf system.
I'm pretty sure the little trim pot that comes with the kit just outputs a 0-5V signal to the CAN controller that adjusts the assist. My plan is to use an output on my ECU to a variable 0-5V based on VSS so I can have less assist the faster I'm going. The gripe I've had with OEM EPAS (and mostly on cheaper cars) is the delay between input and assist. Like making small corrections it's heavy then light. My LS460 has early-ish EPAS (2007) and feels very consistent but also very numb (probably intentionally). Keep us updated! |
I've got it installed and it seems to work pretty good, just not used to the car with powersteering before, feels pretty twitchy and effortless in comparison which I am sure will take some getting used to... initially I felt a delay like you mentioned but playing around with feedback seemed to help after driving around for a bit I didn't even notice it.
I didn't want to mess with the DIY route I don't trust my welding ability to be related to my steering systems, also I had the site weld on a quick release hub too so I could ditch the adapters and hub extras/etc. I need to check the linkages as it seems to have too much play at the unit, I would think that the steering column needs to be rigid when installed but this has a little bit of up and down play like it could be supported better since this electric motor has some girth to it hanging off a stick. |
Originally Posted by Shainiac
(Post 12548858)
Interested in the EPAS as well. I picked up a Vue column from a junkyard and was planning to DIY it, but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle with an off-the-shelf system.
I'm pretty sure the little trim pot that comes with the kit just outputs a 0-5V signal to the CAN controller that adjusts the assist. My plan is to use an output on my ECU to a variable 0-5V based on VSS so I can have less assist the faster I'm going. The gripe I've had with OEM EPAS (and mostly on cheaper cars) is the delay between input and assist. Like making small corrections it's heavy then light. My LS460 has early-ish EPAS (2007) and feels very consistent but also very numb (probably intentionally). Keep us updated! |
BUILD UPDATES: more like race maintenance mode.
having the front and rear shocks rebuilt, will try some different spring rates and see how I like it. (front & rear) as well as doing all the wheel bearings and new studs in the spares. When I say all the wheel bearings I mean the ones on the car AND the spare set. With everyone out and apart it was also a good time to get the rear rotors resurfaced and ready to rock again. Now I should be ready to go for a few seasons here https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...11_mmthumb.jpg the green hubs are getting retired as they can't take any more wheel bearings, the bore is too loose from too many R&Rs of wheel bearings now. I would do a commute to work and back and the wheel bearing would have play thats how bad it got. I have a plethora of rear springs to work with now but only 2 (soon to be 3) sets of front springs (12" vs 14") https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...22_mmthumb.jpg left to right: 200/225/250/275 |
When I refreshed my rocker panels I had a gap in the back side that I needed to close out to keep from dirt accumulating and then found I needed some additional rust repair. luckily I had cut out some rockers from a car in the junkyard so it should look pretty nice versus my drunkenly welded mess of sheet metal.
https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png ughh, its in a hard to reach spot going to take some time making patch panels here but luckily they wont be seen. https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png pin stands got added by a friend of mine who is a far better welder than I am: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png and then to cover that slop: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png here it is mocked up before welding it to the car, don't worry the pin stand holes will poke through, just got to clean this up and then do the driver side plus some rust repair by the other rear pin stand mount. I feel like I'm doing cab corners but the front cab corners have long been replaced. |
now just to do some heavy grinder action and repeat the fix for the other side:
https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png I forgot to cut out the space for the pin stand before but the hammer really helps you find it ad hoc which is nice. quick hole saw action and were back in business. https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png Rebuilt the rear suspension/brakes/wheel bearings/etc, shocks have new springs and fully serviced/functional and I was ready for our SCCA's region's rallycross! I'll tackle the front end this month in preparations for rally(s) in the springtime. Because this was tarmac event, I needed some new tires and I just so happen to pickup tire streets as a tire sponsor so I got a good discount on some accerla 200tw tires and was awarded some MRF gravel rally tires! https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png haven't had fresh summers on this car in about 10 years, I had to dismount my OG rivals finally as they were pretty bald and starting to rot but based on the amount of pavement driving I do Im sure these tires will last me another 10 years haha. but anyways enough rust repair and cosmetic stuff/weld roasting me: EPAS! https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...11_mmthumb.jpg took a bit to get used to, the center is a bit numb and it kind of feels like a video game but the effort to slide this around is so much less I'm excited for whats to come, unfortunately after the parade lap I took a hard first run and ended up with the steering column in my lap: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png Rivnuts were a terrible choice for this application (its now through bolts, hardened washers) as I was bolting the steering rack through the chassis and threading into these m8 rivnuts that were in the sheet metal dashboard, I think this has been fatiguing for a while and was bound to happen any time, possibly even before without the extra mass from the EPAS unit. Glad this happened here and not out on stage so because of that terrible run I was out of competition effectively for the day, took a mechanical to fix it and went back at it for the fun of it and further testing... and by testing I mean drifting! https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...22_mmthumb.jpg pictures from this event were epic and I think with the revised intake setup and hood/bodywork I can now tackle low water bridges or huge puddles without the fear of sucking up water as I went WOT through standing water multiple times per run and had no skip or hesitation from any ingestion of water, which is a huge plus. https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...14_mmthumb.jpg https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...99_mmthumb.jpg I wished I had power steering a long time ago, it was far easier to slide around and correct, I have a few videos (helmet cam & exterior) I'll need to post up soon too. Lots of fun! |
So, what have we learned? EPAS needs some more reinforcement like Pete mentioned, even after my quick fix I was playing around with it in the garage and noticed that the mounting points do tend to flex a lot so I need to reinforce those with some more metal bracing, add that to the to do list but it looks like I still don't know what I'm doing drifting as I have a lot of wheel work even to make the most subtle early corners, get lost in the wheel enough to make me re-visit my increased steering speed idea, take a look at the helmet cam and see for yourself.
[youtube] this was a short run that got red flagged for other reasons, not me, and not much drifting is available for the rest of the course, just this part. So I opted to go the drifty boi route and get new knuckles, which are pretty beefy in comparison to stock but you can tell the original ones were mass concerned, where as this design was more focused on the cost of the tooling to make it. https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...es_mmthumb.jpg we have another rallyX at the same location in a few weeks so it will be a good comparison and if I don't like it I can go back to stock and try again but while we are in there good idea to service the shocks, overhaul the front suspension while I have the time and get the rally prep work done. https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...t1_mmthumb.jpg rear is all set now so its time to look at the front which lead to some interesting observations... remember this? https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p..._o_mmthumb.jpg well here was the landing! https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p..._o_mmthumb.jpg I had serviced my front shocks just before that event (March of 2021) and haven;t touched them sense. can you guess which side this top hat came from that also has a collapsed shock insert? https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...t1_mmthumb.jpg https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...t2_mmthumb.jpg yikes! it guess with these all bowed out it explains why I had such a hard time adjusting camber on the passenger side because it was wedging itself against the car. no biggie, just thicken the stack! https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...t3_mmthumb.jpg then just weld them up and replace the hardware and reinstall once I get the shocks returned to me, meanwhile I can work on steering shaft mounting reinforcement and clean up my rocker job. car should be all set for another 1-3 years of abuse depending on frequency of events, not much left to do which is good because its about to get busy this spring/summer with rallies!!!! <3 |
the increased steering speed was a godsend, I should have done this years ago.
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its a race between the clock and my welding friends free-time: but this is on its way
https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png after about 12 years of abuse my old radiator is starting to leak from the core, a quick call to griffin thermal products and a quick sketch I was able to get my inlets/outlets the correct size for the radiator tubing as well as a port for my heater core. I could have got the mounting tabs done too but they are at a funky angle and it would be hard to put them on a drawing correctly so the mounting tabs will go on ad hoc. refreshing the paint right now and a few tweaks then alignment and test drive meanwhile I continue to pack the trailer and vehicles in preparation for this camping rally adventure. |
Before we get into the event itself the weeks leading up to the event were busy too, having what I thought was thoroughly testing the updated suspension and steering and tested the cooling system and deemed the engine OKAY it was time to tidy up and get ready for an alignment. only a bad eye ball alignment was performed before the rallycrosses. Here is a bit of a sweep of the tire.
In short, the new setup was quick to get used to and felt amazing. Very responsive, no more unnecessary lag of the wheel when at speed, always hard to tell with how it may feel from a rallycross because the sustained speeds are different. Luckily doing some transiting in Kentucky proved to be excellent, there isn't 100' of straight road where we was that wasn't the interstate very curvy fun roads to be had at low speeds and the immediate turn in was great. (driver side, tarmac tires, full lock left) https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png (dead on) https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png pretty good angle! curious to see how it felt out on stage: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png Needless to say they were way off https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png since I was already doing brakes/wheel bearings (including refreshing spares) and all the steering updates I went with OEM new balljoints and outer tie rod ends and move the other parts to the "good known spares" box to bring with at events. but that was an easy fix. however spoiler alert! it was a McDouble-DNF for us due to suspension failures. The first rally was the McReary Rally and there we (likely) snapped an upper strut bolt that left us with quite the positive camber just before the end of SS1, we were able to cross the finish line but not much past that. It was a quick fix and came back after the 2nd service and enjoyed the fun roads and missed out on the car breaker one. The second event was Bristol Forest Rally and we made it to day 2 but failed early on in the beginning of the dirt portion of the stages; stages 1 &2 on Friday were tarmac. |
right before the suspension failure you can see the car being twitchy (the entire stage), i'll post up after fixing it and you can see how the wheel is much more stable. Wasn't noticeable driving around town speeds but at pace most definitely |
This is how we ended up Saturday only a few miles into the first stage: the co-driver side was pointing straight ahead btw...
https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png right on the edge of the cliff (picture doesn't do it justice, luckily there were small enough trees to catch us and we weren't going super fast at that spot) https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png which happened from a rock + dip/bump in matter of seconds: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png it below BELOW the pickup point and this was a brand new OEM outer tie rod, it was a bit tricky getting it out as I couldn't pull the bolt through the top because of said taper but by lowering the jackstand onto a stick it was enough for the impact to do its ugga dugga and retrieve the failed bolt. After the stages were swept we had our crew bring us parts and fixed it then drove back to service. With rallies, you always have/need spares. I am pretty good about this as I can't rip parts off another subaru with a blown headgasket like everyone else (theres always one) at a rally. So this brings us to steering version 3 (or possibly more, IDK - I haven't really kept track so lets just say V3) I have been told by the facebooks drifty boi's that caravan outer and inner tie rods (roughly 2006 era) work and are far beefer, and they weren't kidding, it upgrades from an m12 bolt to an m14 thread on top of a beefier inner tie rod shaft https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png From Left to right: OEM/Stock Rx7, S14 240sx, dodge Caravan https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png lots more material and thread engagement (current knuckles only give about 12mm of engagement on stock tie rod ends) https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png these mini van ones are beefy, don't let the rx7 one fool you (square flange) as that flange drops off quick. top is 240sx my only concern is that the taper on the Nissan and Dodge outer tie rod ends leaves a similar gap before the start of the boot to the bottom of the knuckle but it has very similar overall engagement depth as stock one does, but maybe this is no issue as the boot on the stock one covers more taper but the taper portion on both of these are quite a bit longer than stock. (left rx7, right dodge caravan) https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png The thought behind all of this is the added force of the electric power steering and the shortened knuckle pickup points are causing more force/stresses in this area. The dodge ones are greasable too which is nice and has ALOT of depth to have the outer tie rod end eat up: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png I may even have to shorten the inner tie rod a touch but by going to these outers and being common with S14 240SX stuff, there are plenty of dirfty outer tie rod ends available. I don't particularly like heim joints in this application as I will probably eat a set each day which isn't ideal so going to a different stock style route is appealing. I don't know if I go through with the dodge parts swap on frankenwankel if I will then find another weak point in the steering... oddly enough I can find next to zero information on these upgrades on this forum, which seems surprising.. |
The Dodge tie-rods are interesting, I'd never heard of that before. Both my outers are fine but have torn boots. When I replace them maybe I'll upgrade while I'm in there. Not that I'll be snapping the stock ones anytime soon.
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mounts are done then spent the next several days doing dull ducting... https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png but its well covered and ready to rock! the grand am cars I saw at the Detroit grand prix all had metal boxes funneling the air but given my application and having trees on location where i race a i figure a small off shouldn't DNF me with a new hole in the radiator so I opted to use the mudflap material that you can get by the roll for circle track body panels, plenty of flex and strength, I compiled it with small bolts and many rivets using extruded aluminum L brackets in various positions to help hold the plastic and guide the air directly into the radiator. https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png apparently there is good science behind the shapes of this and how to do it but I kinda just drank beer and winged it so I hope its better than what it used to be but now you can see a whole lot of radiator instead of an oil cooler out front blocking the flow. Just need to finish plumbing it then I can take a test drive need to get it ready for august basically as we got car shows, rallycross and stage rally ahead and most of July is booked with family activities so hopefully this is done right the first time. |
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Got it plumbed up and wired, everything looks good so far, just testing for leaks and such but quick report shows positive benefit, even without driving the car.
Its not exactly air tight to the hood but its pretty well diverted. the back part is still open as i don't want it to interfere with the crank trigger or waterpump pulley plus it would make serviceability a nightmare. If I ever have to take this structure apart I may be adding in rivnuts to areas to improve serviceability. It works! too good actually, or its working as it should be. so much so that I need to replace the gutted thermostat with a regular one as the cooling system is functioning normally. I could not get the car up to full temp: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png it even was able to get the water temp down from 187F to 150F I should have done ducting years ago! |
back on the automotive ADHD train revisiting the setup changes and having to shift direction, at full drop the drift knuckles hit the control arm and lower balljoint hardware, this is not ideal and its not THAT much droop or travel so I don't want to go to travel limiting straps and having the balljoints installed incorrectly (which nobody seem to catch on the prior photos either) only works on the passenger side, it physically won't fit on the driver side in the same "above" orientation for the balljoints. funny thing is on the passenger side when the balljoints are installed correctly the knuckle contacts the lower control arm far worse than the other side for some reason. I'm sure this car is twisted as its been off roaded and patched up so many times over the past the decade and a half.
correct orientation but still hits: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png incorrect and clears: https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/p...ge_mmthumb.png messing around with the beefy outer tie rod ends too but ever angle just seems so extreme. all the boots seem to not want to stay on with the travel. I really feel like I am the limit of the capabilities of the setup anything else is a major overhaul and expense. not to mention I'm 2 rallies away from really needing all new shocks all around, a very expensive rally maintenance fee so to speak but these have been overhauled too many times and are simply wearing out or will not be rebuild-able soon... so the stock knuckles are going back on and I'll be getting a steering quickener installed as that was more important than angle, however the angle would have been great for sno*drift and ice racing events. and yes I ran mcbristol with the balljoints installed 2 different ways and didn't notice it. |
FWIW, 05-09 Mustangs use the same lower ball joint shank OD. Whiteline makes extended balljoints and you can buy balljoint cups for fabrication at a few different online vendors. You'd have to make the actual arm that'd bolt to the control arm and weld to the BJ cup, though. I 3D printed a few different versions to mock up, but the OEM ball joints are angled up about 15* and I couldn't find anyone local that could bend 1/2" steel plate like you'd need, without distorting the cup ID. If that makes sense.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...279987fe7e.jpg |
Been following this thread on and off for years - nice work on this and lots of good info as well. I don't go on facebook so I hadn't seen anything about the caravan tie rods. Also great info above about the mustang ball joints. I've been wanting to make roll center correctors for a while, but didn't like the idea of using spherical bearings and having to worry about longevity without constantly cleaning them. Good to know a more standard style ball joint can be made to work :)
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Originally Posted by Shainiac
(Post 12569512)
FWIW, 05-09 Mustangs use the same lower ball joint shank OD. Whiteline makes extended balljoints and you can buy balljoint cups for fabrication at a few different online vendors. You'd have to make the actual arm that'd bolt to the control arm and weld to the BJ cup, though. I 3D printed a few different versions to mock up, but the OEM ball joints are angled up about 15* and I couldn't find anyone local that could bend 1/2" steel plate like you'd need, without distorting the cup ID. If that makes sense.
Originally Posted by 82transam
(Post 12569528)
Been following this thread on and off for years - nice work on this and lots of good info as well. I don't go on facebook so I hadn't seen anything about the caravan tie rods. Also great info above about the mustang ball joints. I've been wanting to make roll center correctors for a while, but didn't like the idea of using spherical bearings and having to worry about longevity without constantly cleaning them. Good to know a more standard style ball joint can be made to work :)
spherical bearings in rally application is useless, it would be replacing your suspension every time you had a service break during the day. I like using sleeves with polyurethane where possible. |
Originally Posted by Shainiac
(Post 12569512)
I couldn't find anyone local that could bend 1/2" steel plate like you'd need, without distorting the cup ID. If that makes sense.
1) machine a slug the same size as the ball joint OD, and stick it in the hole while it's being formed. After forming just press the plug out and that will (mostly) preserve the ID of the bracket hole. OR (and more preferable IMO) 2) purposely undersize the hole by .125"-ish (or leave it out completely) and after forming, re-machine the hole to size. |
Originally Posted by need-a-t2
(Post 12569612)
couple ways around this problem.
1) machine a slug the same size as the ball joint OD, and stick it in the hole while it's being formed. After forming just press the plug out and that will (mostly) preserve the ID of the bracket hole. OR (and more preferable IMO) 2) purposely undersize the hole by .125"-ish (or leave it out completely) and after forming, re-machine the hole to size. I hear you, but I don't have a lathe or a mill. My plan was to SendCutSend the bracket out of 1/2" steel and have it bent, but no one I talked to wanted to touch it. The bend would need to be pretty close to the ID, or else you'd probably have to extend the balljoint and I already have more camber than I want. I suppose I could do an upper and lower bracket out of 1/4" and maybe have better luck, but I have bigger projects to tackle first lol. |
Originally Posted by Shainiac
(Post 12569512)
FWIW, 05-09 Mustangs use the same lower ball joint shank OD. Whiteline makes extended balljoints and you can buy balljoint cups for fabrication at a few different online vendors. You'd have to make the actual arm that'd bolt to the control arm and weld to the BJ cup, though. I 3D printed a few different versions to mock up, but the OEM ball joints are angled up about 15* and I couldn't find anyone local that could bend 1/2" steel plate like you'd need, without distorting the cup ID. If that makes sense.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...279987fe7e.jpg |
Originally Posted by Shainiac
(Post 12569620)
I hear you, but I don't have a lathe or a mill. My plan was to SendCutSend the bracket out of 1/2" steel and have it bent, but no one I talked to wanted to touch it. The bend would need to be pretty close to the ID, or else you'd probably have to extend the balljoint and I already have more camber than I want. I suppose I could do an upper and lower bracket out of 1/4" and maybe have better luck, but I have bigger projects to tackle first lol.
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