Icy build
 

Y irons, 74 ports, Nikki, S5 turbo

First you need to read through this thread for background info on the engine: https://www.rx7club.com/build-thread...build-1072467/

The engine has since been torn down due to a weird side seal (since corrected) and will get rebuilt as soon as the parts arrive. Some time next week. :)

Now on to the build.

I've just spent this week hogging out and boost prepping a Nikki. I'll test run it before it goes on the engine. Venturis at 24.7mm because that is the best all around size for a setup like this. Any bigger and you lose driveability. Any smaller and you lose transient response and tip-in. Note: you 12A guys will want slightly smaller venturis.

Hogged out boost prepped Nikki specs:
The bench tune consists of:

pri short slow: 118
pri long slow: 46 (stock)
pri air: 70 (stock)
pri fuel: 119
sec air: 80
sec fuel: 140
sec long slow: solder filled
sec short slow: 37

accel pump nozzle and banjo drilled to 118
three gaskets on either side
1 1/8 to 1 1/4 extension piece (slotted upper hole for fine adjustment)

40 air bleed in air horn solder filled

welded mech secondary linkage

Float bowl vent solenoid and altitude comp blocked. The PO blocked the vacuum secondary hole with a screw and some kind of epoxy so I'm leaving it alone.

The idiotic aftermarket needles and seats the PO installed will get swapped out as soon as I come across some OEMs. For now, I can swap a different top on for testing.

Fuel system:
MSD 2225
Mallory 4309

I found what looks like a good used mallory on eBay so I ordered it. The diaphram might need to be changed. We'll see.

The stock 1/4" return hardline under the car will get swapped out for a 3/8" line. The reasons are pretty obvious but I'll mention them here. The instructions say you need to use a 3/8" return line. Once I swapped one in my car, my fuel line related flooding issues went away.

Also place the mallory as close to the carb as possible. I'll see if I can install it closer to the carb on the Icy engine than I did in a previous install.

I expect to be able to adjust it down to 1 or 2 psi with the MSD pump and the 3/8" return line. You also need to keep the 5/16" send line. Before the lowest I could get it was 5 psi using a walbro 255 and the wrong size lines. Avoid the problems and get an MSD 2225 and follow Mallory's instructions.

It's also not a bad idea to run a new thick fuel pump wire.

Wait, this is a build thread, not an explanation thread. Ok I'll stop with all the extended explanations. I'll see about getting some pics later today too if I remember.

Great info, I'll be paying close attention to this:ugh2:

The engine is stacked! The blue car is getting prepped for it right now. :) Still has the old engine in there as a place holder so I can work out the fuel system.

Today I gave the bellypan a nice coat of wrinkle finish, because I had some. I got the 3/8" return hard line plumbed back to the tank and got the MSD 2225 pump installed and wired. Looks like I'll still have to change the filter too. It's metal (you can't see through it) and it let some particles through recently so it's gotta go. I've got a plastic (see-through) one that can go in.

Still a whole bunch to do:
engine swap to ICY!
waterpump swap to S4 T2 unit
fab a connection from the down pipe to the existing exhaust
hook up a wideband
turbo oil return line
plumb in a mallory 4309
install a 10 degree semi-locked dizzy
DLIDFIS
swap to BR8EQ-14 plugs (car had FC plugs which are harder to ignite with FB ignition)
make a charge pipe with a BOV
plumb BOV and boost gauge to intake mani
plumb mallory to carb hat

Any pictures of the fuel setup, trying to get some ideas:nod:

What size diameter exhaust does the car already have?

I think you were right about the 3" exhaust. All I hear is whistling turbo. :lol:

For the request to see the fuel system, here is the fuel pump. I had to work quickly and with what was available. Enjoy!

how long until you figure there'll be action?

Oh, there's action every day. Everything on the list is a project in and of itself. Plenty of "action" going on, if you will.

But I understand what you meant. You were asking about when it'll be done and up & running. Well, as you know this is a build thread. As such it should be all about the build, not about a completion date. Would you agree? If it was completed already, where's the fun in that? It's a journey, not a destination.

But because you asked, and because I have a completion date I must adhere to, I'm going to say it should be up and running by mid October. If it takes longer than that, I'm doing it wrong. :)

I'd like to see more hogged out boost prepped Nikki projects like this one and the brown car's because I know they work better than anything I've done in the past.* So I'm posting about it.

Just yesterday I figured out the fittings on the Mallory 4309 and where to put it in the engine bay. Because it's a mix of engineering and a bit of mechanical, it takes a little while to do right.

Then I started working on exhaust until it got dark. All that's left is to just join the dp to the existing center section with a single adaptor piece. They're at different heights so just add a little angle and it's done. Shouldn't take more than a few hours tomorrow or when it stops raining. Yes, I'm giving myself plenty of time to do it right so I don't rush things and have to do it over.

Today I gotta do a turbo oil return line to a 1st gen front cover on the Icy engine and drill an aluminum plate for DLIDFIS ignitors. But I shouldn't post about this stuff until after it's done.

*These intakes didn't work very well or have been disappointments:
three EFI setups with MegaSquirts and one with a stock S4 NA ECU
stock 13B Hitachi carbs of any type/vintage
stock 12A Nikki carbs of any type/vintage
weber DCOE for NA and later boost prepped
off the shelf Holley 390
off the shelf Holley 600 on a Camden 7" SC
off the shelf Edelbrock 600 on RB 6 port intake manifold
RB Dellorto 48 DHLA

These intakes weren't bad but weren't very good either:
RB Holley 600 on an adapted REPU intake manifold (NA) and temporarily on a Camden 7" SC (suck through? which kinda worked and wowed us)
RB Holley 550 on an RB intake mani on a mild streetported 3B REPU engine back in 1990 (responsible for getting me into rotaries in the first place, but I recall he had trouble with it every other day)
off the shelf Edelbrock 600 on a Camden 5" SC in the REPU and the orange car
QFT carb on a Camden 5" SC in a 510

In other words, these intakes provided a bit of wow factor, but that was it. Just a bit of wow factor. Not a lot, but memorable in their own ways. Lots better than the disappointment list above. But no where near the level of power and refinement of the hogged out boost prepped Nikkis I've tested in the brown car. The goal is for the blue car to be as nice.

Hmm, let me make a minor correction. Where I mention "off the shelf Edelbrock 600 on a Camden 5" SC..." as being not bad but not very good either, this is what both blue cars had in them. It was a disappointment in both. I was going to test the Camden in the brown car, but fortunately never got around to it. The call of the turbo was just too strong. Glad I listened. The current blue car is here right now to get everything swapped over to a hogged out boost prepped Nikki and an S5 turbo on the freshly rebuilt Icy engine so as not to be a disappointment any more. :) I mean the car not being a disappointment; the SC will always be a disappointment I'm sorry to say. That's the reason for this build thread. But I can say something good about the Camden 5" with the Edelbrock 600 when it was in the REPU last year with a long primary exhaust; it really was pretty good and provided the wow factor I was looking for. I didn't really get on it though due to the engine having been freshly rebuilt, so I didn't want to boost it, but the basic driveability was actually very nice and felt like it had a mini V8 or something when you'd lay into the go pedal. Basically what I was looking for in this truck, but the call of the turbo is very strong.

Could it be the weight of the heavier REPU is loading the SC more than the lighter weight of a typical 1st gen? Not entirely sure but it makes sense, even though the SC is belt driven (RPM locked to the e-shaft) so you wouldn't really think so. Though they seem to respond better the harder you load them. The GLC had a similar lack luster performance with this very same 5" SC and carb, probably due to how light it is. Hence it's getting a hogged out boost prepped Nikki that will be used NA for now.

Speaking of which, the only intake in the GLC that ever had a wow factor was the RB Holley 600 on an REPU intake mani with an adaptor plate. Think a hogged out boost prepped Nikki will provide a bigger wow factor? Even if used NA? I kinda do at this point. And since the RB Holley is a single pumper, I don't think it will ever work very well with boost. But a Nikki will! So I have future expandability by swapping over to a Nikki.

Getting back on topic, if the hogged out boost prepped Nikki is a whole other level better in a 1st gen than any SC we've ever tried, power wise and driveability wise, and we already know the REPU was able to provide a heavier load to the SC thus making it respond better, and we know turbos are much more load dependent and will spool faster and make more power if loaded more with things like heavier flywheels and just plain heavier chassis, plus occasionally hauling heavy loads and what not, what do you suppose it will do in something bigger and heavier like a REPU? Especially when towing or hauling heavy loads? Any ideas? :egrin:

Wow, this turned out a lot longer than I thought it would be.

Cliff notes:
Blue car had a Camden 5".
It was disappointing.
It seems all Camdens are disappointing unless it's in the right vehicle: REPU
Even an REPU should noticeably improve with a turbo and a Nikki.
Blue car is getting a turbo and a Nikki.
This should replace disappointment with happy happy joy joy.

Ok so far the exhaust has been completed and the old engine is ready to pull. Just doing these two things used up my entire weekend.

Are you using any kind of heat shield around the turbo?

My carb is percolating cause of the heat from the turbo. I got a turbo blanket, but I've gotta wait for the mail man. I was just wondering if you did the same or just bolted a piece of sheet metal to protect the carb from the heat of the exhaust.

On the brown car I had access to the full S5 heat shielding but could only use the part that covers the exhaust manifold. The other part that covers the turbine housing doesn't fit with the spacer plate. The intake manifold is also pretty close. However I haven't noticed any heat issues with the carb. In fact it takes a while to warm up to operating temps.

Your setup idles at like 2 grand. No wonder your carb is cooking. :)

hehe, yeah.... Its not idling its poor man cruise control :lol:

I lowered it a little more, but yeah that's half my issue.

I've got NO heat shielding at the moment. and I've got like a 1/4" air gap from that turbine to the intake manifold. I'm hoping the little blanket thing will help, along with proper 1000-1100 idle.


I also really want to run the coolant line through it. Are you liquid cooling this one?


EDIT: in the past I've used a piece of sheet metal that bolted to the headers to keep my edelbrock not hot (not really cool but not hot). BUT I think the blanket will help enough. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

I won't be personally hooking up the coolant lines because I never ran them on mine and it never had any problems. But I do let mine idle for about a minute after I've been driving it (I pretend that unplugging the fuel pump relay is a turbo timer :lol:). If I hooked the coolant lines up, I wouldn't need to let it run like that anymore. But I have turbos going in and out somewhat often so it makes sense to not hook them up until I'm satisfied or have no other turbos to test. Of course the owner can do whatever he wants with coolant lines.

Today I got the old engine out and made some progress on the oil return line. It should be finished by tomorrow and maybe the new engine can go in. :D

Now he wants me to see about hooking up the coolant lines. I just got the engine in so I don't have as easy access to it as when it was on the stand. But I'll see what I can do.

Ugh, that sucks, you are making a lot of progress. Keep it up:icon_tup:

I'm just trying to make your life hard by suggesting things. :lol:

If I do coolant lines, they'll be some of the last things to do. There are far more important things that need attention right now. Oh, you know, things like an intake manifold, carb etc. :lol: No big deal.

The list of stuff that needed attention yesterday:
front mount bar nuts tightened
hockey puck motor mount nuts tightened
all bellhousing bolts tightened
starter installed and wired up
removed some misguided teflon tape applied to the rear oil line at the oil cooler. It was leaking. The front line isn't leaking (at the cooler) so I'm leaving it as is. The front line appeared to be leaking at the front cover connection so the teflon tape got removed too. I'm like teflon tape? Really?
installed the belly pan
installed the intake manifold
installed the exhaust manifold
installed the turbo
installed the oil return line
installed the downpipe
set the carb in place
set the carb hat on the carb and installed the fitting to send a boost signal to the mallory
tested some new blue silicone hose on the mini barb nipple. It stays on very well.

Damn, I'm jealous. Your flying right through this build. Your motivating me to get of of my but, and get mine done. :nod:

Yeah, you better get your butt in gear! ;) The hot weather is now over (in my region anyway) and the cold weather is right around the corner. I have 15 days left before it snows in the pass. Mid October, apparently.

I have a list of probably as many things long to do today. I'd like to get the mallory installed but I need to redo one of the fittings on it. Also gotta do the blue anodized RB oil press and temp thing on the pedestal with an NPT to AN fitting to use the Kinugawa oil feed line. Gotta relocate the aftermarket oil pressure sender the owner installed, maybe to the rear iron's BSP hole. I've got a trick steel adaptor thing from an FD sender I think I can use. Maybe chase the female BSP threads out to NPT? In the adaptor, not the rear iron. It would be cool to put it in the rear iron in the stock location, as long as it doesn't interfere with anything. The way he had it, it was almost touching the brake booster and showed evidence of having touched it (scratched paint) while driving. Not good! It was also almost impossible to get a wrench on the nut to take the ring terminal off. Well, whatever. I'll see about relocating it. Just gotta get creative today, I guess. :)

It runs!!!!!!
 

:jump:

Starts right up and idles cold at 1000!

Of course anyone who knows anything about Nikkis knows that the idle mixture is a tad rich, but who cares!

First I test cranked it to see if any oil pressure would build up. Some did. Next threw in some used spark plugs and got the wires hooked up. Ok. Then turn on the fuel pump and get the mallory adjusted. One of the needles was a little sticky but it freed up. The rear sec butterfly flooded so I went ahead and cranked it with the fuel pump off. It coughed to life and got smooth after two or three seconds. Then I let off of pedal and it almost idled but stalled after only like ten seconds of run time. Nice! So I hopped out, cranked on the throttle stop slightly (but didn't even touch the mixture screw as it was previously set for the brown car's leaky brake booster, which this car doesn't have). Ran the fuel pump again and cranked. Little high in the windows but holding steady. Fired right up and idled at 1000 without needing to touch the pedal. Fuel level stays in middle of windows. I'd say this was a successful build! :icon_tup:

Congrats... I now feel extremely incompetent. You did in one page and a few weeks what it took me 2 years and 7 pages of guessing to do. AND I still have 0 fuel at idle.

But seriously good job. :icon_tup:

Thanks. You know I could look at your carb, if you send it to me. Find out why it isn't getting fuel at idle, amoung other things.

My first one of these in the brown car took a lot longer, I can tell you. I rebuilt PercentSevenC's turbo in Sep '13 and test ran it with only a DP hooked to a couple of 3" magnaflows hung precariously under the car. Then I had to take it all out and throw the NA setup back in because of other commitments. Plus nothing else was ready to go yet. It wasn't until Feb '14 that I could get back out there and engineer all the intricate details like FPR and BOV plumbing. Actually, between Sep and Feb I had a chance to build a charge pipe and work out the oil drain line on the Icy engine over the winter - you've seen the pics of it on the garage floor. :) Then in Feb I was out there in between rain storms hooking everything up and joining the DP to the rest of a 3" system I had available. Then it took another year and a half or so to get the hang of boost prepping Nikkis so they wouldn't flood anymore or have an annoying secondary delay.

So don't feel bad if it took you forever to make any progress. I had a couple years experience and enough parts to do one more of these pretty quickly. It hasn't been easy though. Or quick. All I could do today was find a bolt for the waterpump's alt bracket because it's an S4 T2 waterpump on a 1st gen engine. You have to cut coarse threads (10mm x 1.5) in the waterpump and drill out the impeller. Also drill out the alt bracket so the bolt passes through it. Turns out I had one already drilled from Percent's car, but I needed to weld a new one for his engine which uses the stock FC long bolt into the front iron, thus it doesn't need to be drilled, but all I had access to at this point are the older FB type. They are too short. The blue car also had one that was too short and the owner did what he could to make it work, but in the process ground a bit of steel away, so I repurposed it as a) a rear center section exhaust hanger and b) a fuel pump bracket (as seen above).

Congratulations:icon_tup:

Thanks, but I wouldn't me much of an engineering student/ professional mechanic if I couldn't figure an idle circuit out. :lol:


I gotta say though, thanks for figuring all this Nikki stuff out for everyone here. I would have taken an eternity trying to boost through the old edelbrock; and it probably would have never happened. I guess the next time (if there is a next time) it won't take me so long.

Suit yourself, but you know where I am when you give up and need to send it to me. ;)

So I got the waterpump installed today. Took a surprisingly long time.

This new computer is a lot harder to use so I'll just upload the pictures at full rez and let the forum sort it out.

I love the colors that you chose for the engine, looks awesome. I Have That Same Oil Feed line, lol:icon_tup:

Yeah, everyone loves the Icy engine. :)

The orange pressure plate is a centerforce. The old paint was about 90% flaked off so I did a quick mask job and and hit it with about 1 1/2 coats of fresh orange engine paint. This p-plate+disc+flywheel combo had more than enough grip to hold under boost when it broke them loose for the first time in 3rd gear in the brown car back in December last year, so I figured it'll work here too. :) It was only 40 degrees F outside and everyone knows turbos make more power the colder it is. :D

Yeah, the oil feed line works pretty well. Kinugawa eBay special. No leaks.

Yeah, that's a third for the ebay special oil feed line here.


I do the same thing with the 12A exhaust gaskets.... Cut them in half rather than throw them away.


I have the stock turbo ii clutch/flywheel/pressure plate setup. So far so good.



And as a bit of a follow up. Ebay specials are good for delivering oil, but don't expect accurate fuel pressure measurements. 2.5#s on my ebay gauge is 0.0#s; 5#s reading on the gauge is 2.5. That fixed my lean issue, or it was the hella cleaning I did to the carb last night.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who uses ebay parts, lol. I don't think I would use one of there gauges, i got a used autometer fuel pressure gauge from there, don't know how it works yet. I'm glad you took care of your lean issue:icon_tup:

I got the mallory fpr for this car on eBay. Good used for like 50 bucks or something. It can go all the way down to 1psi. Seems to have a good diaphragm. :)

I had a few minutes today so I got the radiator hoses on and started working on the coolant hoses for the turbo. The lower short one was easy because it turns out I had the right curved hose for it. Don't know if it's S4 or S5 but it fits great. The upper long one will take some engineering because it has to go all the way around the intake manifold and over to the thermowax nipple on the waterpump.

Definitely love the engine! Icy is a great term to describe it! Its coming together nicely Jeff!

Nice looking work. So much plumbing for even the simplest turbo setup.

I've had the same or very similar CenterForce clutch on my 12A forever now and its does great.
A lot of folks poo-poo them because of the little weights flinging off etc. Never had that issue
and it seems to clamp and hold really well. Its been on the car for about 30K miles or so and
has seem some hard usage with no issues. Knock on wood.

This is what I did yesterday:

Finished the turbo coolant hoses. They turned out well.

Clearanced waterpump ribs because this cheap aftermarket impeller casting is cheap. The previous Atkins pulley was able to fit with only a little rubbing (it self clearanced) because they are further forward. The stock steel pulley required a couple mm of clearance. So I attacked it with a dremel. The paint will need to get touched up later.

Installed the alt but because it is an S5, it is pretty big. The modded FB bracket to fit an FC waterpump needed some clearancing. Also the steel insert where the big 14mm head (10mm) pivot bolt goes through the alt was pulled all the way forward so a stock spacer wouldn't work. I used a c-clamp to compress it back in. Then tightened the 14mm bolt until the insert met the stock spacer. Alt fits perfectly now.

Filled with coolant to check for leaks. None found.

Because the water temp sender was relocated to the back of the waterpump, I needed to elongate the wire. Same for the oil temp and pressure senders which were also relocated to better places.

Got a 60 degree Spectre chrome plated plastic elbow and 2" to 3" adaptor. Installed the Spectre filter and adaptor just like in the brown car. Fits perfectly. Even used a bungee cord to prevent tearing of the soft adaptor material (it happened in the brown car).

Threw a charge pipe together with a Blitz BOV just like the brown car.

Plumbed all the nipples and added a calibrated boost leak inline to the mallory from the carb hat. The hole is currently about .65mm; I can enlarge it if needed.

Installed the wideband in the RB downpipe and ran the harness through the firewall. Ran out of daylight so I called it a day.

Its really not. Oil in; oil out. pressure line to Mallory. Vac lines to distributer and BOV. and the biggy air from turbo to carb. Seems like a lot, but once you do it, it looks simple in retrospect.



Jeff, use a K&N filter strait off the turbo next time. The K&N is rated at 850cfms which should be plenty for a 13B and its super simple. Also, rechargeable :D

Which filter, and what pressure drop is that 850 CFM measured at? I picked a random 2.375" ID filter from K&N's site and they rate it at 110.9 CFM at 1.5" of water. Ideally I'd like to see at least double that for a setup like this. Unfortunately we're rather limited in space directly in front of the turbo due to the radiator positioning. The best we can do is to use a short elbow and just cram the biggest filter in there that will fit.

And the Spectre filters are rechargeable as well.

K&N RD-0500 Universal Rubber Filter, Universal Air Filters

Back of the box read 850 something, outside extreme dusty environments. SC isn't exactly desert so I figured I was safe ;)

Not interested in air filters. Also the dizzy does NOT get hooked up. Who told you to hook it up? It wasn't me. Probably why your setup has problems. Unless you have a genuine 12AT dizzy, which even if you did, its amount of boost retard would be so insignificant that it's not even necessary. The thing was designed for emissions and the stock EFI they had. I know my setup makes a lot more power so that's what's important to me. Let's not lose focus.

I got started on wiring. Turns out the owner hooked his electric fans to the coils! This pulls a lot more amps through the stock ignition switch than it was designed for. The wire gauge he used was also very thin. No wonder he complained about it running hot* and a lack of power from the Camden. His ignition was weak due to reduced/sagged voltage. He also used FC spark plugs which we know are harder to start when you have 1st gen ignition. So if harder to start, it was also making less power all over, thus another reason the Camden was gutless.

*he had a motorad (stant clone) thermostat that was rated for 170. Gee I wonder if this was at least partly responsible for the engine running hot. We all know stant should be avoided at all cost in these engines. Well, any engine I would assume. The quality is extremely poor and the little valve is so small it doesn't let much volume through. I had a stant one time that would get stuck as it opened. So it only opened like 20 to 30 percent. Scary stuff. So I tossed in an OEM brass one that I drilled the valve several times. I tested one of these in the 510 last month and it idled at 160 degrees F. Both cars had dual electric fans that don't flow through the oil cooler. I didn't install the fans... I just shake my head and move on. Hopefully this drilled OEM will easily outflow the crappy stant clone and idle at 160, but we'll see. Fresh rebuild, and all. They tend to run a little hotter. Good thing the weather has cooled down.

Speaking of which, I'm at a cross roads. I'm running out of time. The weather has turned bad. It's supposed to rain tomorrow and for the rest of the week. I have this one day, where it's not raining, to basically finish things up. I was wanting to see about upgrading to DLIDFIS but it turns out I should also redo his fan wires, add a relay, and add a thick power wire for the fuel pump, and add another relay. I don't have that kind of time. The car still needs to be test driven to make sure the whole point of it coming over here, to get a turbo swap, is going to work. I can't use up the the rest of the time dealing with wires.

I assumed the car was up to snuff. Turns out I was wrong. I had to fix SO many things so far. So maybe I'll stop here and just get it up and running. Stock ignition. Stock wiring to fuel pump. Maybe redo the fan wires. Thoughts?

I would do the minimum and just document the issues and let the owner know
what you found. I assume you are doing this for some fixed price. If he wants it
all fixed, ask for more monies. Sounds like he will be lucky not to blow the engine
after he gets it back anyway. You can't fix stoopid!

The owner informed me that it's all good. Whatever I can get accomplished is cool. He would prefer all the wiring to get corrected if possible (who wouldn't). If I have to keep it for another week, and feel up to the challenge, I'll go for it. Nothing like a job well done. But you're right. I can't be there to deal with any issues that come up after the car is deemed finished. At some point he will have to grab the baton, or how ever the saying goes, in a relay race.