I also installed a SnapOff. To simplify things, I relocated the horn button to the right side of the steering column plastics.

surprised you went for the straight-thru XR-1 Sportsman rather than XR-1 Multi-core.

been trying to get someone at Borla to tell me what differentiates the standard multicore from the rotary version, but only receiving crickets. Maybe someone here knows?
.

never bought one from Burns, but always Coast Engineering. I had thought they were the source for them that everyone else sells, but seem to have a low internet presence post Covid.

the one thing I’ll warn you about is the rivet nut fasters that secure the outer shell casing and allow repacking them. They’ll seize and/or booger up in short order if left as-is, not being up to combination of high heat and moisture. You definitely need to have them swimming in high nickel content anti-seize or you won’t be happy later. The standard auto parts store crappy copper anti-seize won’t cut it. Pay the price and order the good stuff from McMaster-Carr and use it pretty much everywhere you can get away with it on any threaded or close mating parts.

Packing is another issue between what actually dampens sound vs what can take the heat. There was a ceramic fiber string wool product I was buying from Germany that did both well, but last time I checked it was becoming hard to find here. I’ll have to look around.

edit: It’s called Silent Sport Premium

https://www-silentsport-info.transla..._x_tr_pto=wapp

In fact, just remembered I have a round 3” in/out x 6” OD x 16” body if that will fit your need. LMK. edit2: probably only a 12” long body now that I think of it.
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Anti-Gravity ATX-30
 

OK, I'm in...and impressed. The buoyancy is disconcerting.

Bonus that I could reuse the old Odyssey PC920 tray with slightly longer allens.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...b268120caa.jpg
Anti-Gravity battery installed

thanks for reminding me to order one of those + multi-terminal battery clamps
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Thoughts of Water and Corn
 

@Howard Coleman has me... well, a lot of us... thinking about water and corn. For my ethanol-based system, I've been considering the benefits and drawbacks of AI. I have a good handle on the octane benefits, but I specifically wanted to understand the Heat of Evaporation cooling impact of different setups. I constrained my look at two systems. In neither system did I account for the fuel-injected gasoline;s contribution to cooling in order to make the comparison more specific to common setups:

• A simplified version of my system: ID1300XDS / ID2000 injectors at 80% duty cycle with a 4-bar/58-psi base fuel pressure (5760 cc/min est.)
• Straight 1000cc/min AI system (water, methanol, or 'bug juice")

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...f07e9626f6.jpg
Heat of Evaporation - BTU cooling contribution of AI and Exx blends

So at my fuel system's e50 (without any AI), I'm within 17% of "bug juice" cooling and 50% more than straight methanol. I'd have to run close to e85 to have similar cooling to 1000cc of water. I suspect I will stay my course.

As always, I hope someone finds and points out any errors I may have made. ADD is a bitch!!

Is that to say you're continuing without WI, because it won't help an E50 car much, or you're adding it because nothing cools like water? Sorry to be dense.

it adds a layer of safety factor though for testing, extraordinary conditions, and such

possible point to consider; if installed you can choose whether it’s on or off.
.

Nothing dense about it, Peter. I wanted to state facts and I tried not to advocate one solution. I did the analysis for myself (and concluded MY choice) but also wanted to make the data available so others could draw their own conclusions. So to your question, it was intentionally ambiguous about "the best" choice.

Ultimately, I refer to my favorite Jewish dude from Chicago: There is no free lunch; all systems have compromises. For turbo rotaries in this case, the primary factors are:

• Performance
  • short-term - anti-detonation, HP
  • long-term - engine durability, HP
• Complexity (design, tuning, and operation)
• Cost (fixed and variable)

Charge cooling crosses all of these. So it's a "witch's brew" of picking the right mix of each ingredient for each setup.

I'll admit that from a design perspective, I've been (perhaps) irrationally averse to adding another major component to the EFI system. This is even though I have a fair understanding of the benefits (including cooling impact from above). I just happen to weigh the factors differently than others in my particular "brew." You know, like beans in chili is common, but in Texas, it's heretical! Or the insanity of not offering sweet tea. But I digress. Anyways maybe my choices are due to my relative lack of concern over losing an engine. Maybe it's laziness actually adding a WI project and the time it completes with upgrading the transmission, installing a PDM, and swapping out the Aim MXL for a Motec C127 dash. Indeed, it's always a witch's brew of choices. So my current flavor continues (for now) without AI.

As a small aside, I think if/when I install WI it will be just that: water only. It will be excluded from tuning for power; 100% for safety and durability.

this is a good point.
1. fewer failure points is better.
2. if you used more than water do you need different premix? how does it play with E50?
3. you should ask your tuner if you even need it, he would know better than anyone.

I did mean to ask how you accounted for the difference in your calculations of injecting E-fuel at the port/intake runner compared to further up the the flow path just before and/or after the throttle body with AI?
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j9fd3s -
1. Concur
2. A whole 'nuther can of worm I haven't put on my plate.
3. While I think my tuner certainly knows what I need from a tuning perspective, I doubt he would know if I need it from a durability/builder's perspective. He's a one-trick pony (tuning), not unlike Secretetriat. But perhaps I'll ask anyways... maybe he's also a fine rotary rodeo horse. :cool:

TeamRX8 - thanks for the excellent question. Long story made short... I didn't account for where the injection happened. Here is my thinking with assumption(s):

• I constrained the look to the cooling effect, so I didn't consider the air mass increase that might be contributed to upstream vs. downstream injection. This conveniently eliminated atomization, phase transitions, and location variables.
• The decrease in the air-fuel charge temp (i.e., BTU) during combustion and immediately after is what I wanted to know. I assumed that the critical operating environment is the actual combustion chamber during the bang and the onset of the power stroke until the trailing apex seal passes the Leading sparkplug. In other words, from ignition to sweeping past the Leading plug. The combustion temps decrease determines the cooling performance (e.g., anti-knock, engine durability).

I won’t refute those words in your own thread, but if you have any interest to know my true thoughts then you know how to reach me to discuss it face to face, if you so choose.
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Bring it...
 

My skin is thick and my knowledge is faulty. Both are getting worse with age.

A lot of assumptions on my part, so I'm thankful for any and all corrections and insights. If you're good with it, I'd love your feedback here for others to also perhaps learn from... or maybe just over lunch sometime soon. Either is welcomed.

pretty simple

IF you are running gasoline as base fuel. you need AI.

if you are running E85, or some significant mixture of E, and G then maybe not although it is a positive add.

Standard 87-93 octane pump gas.

110 octane leaded really hasnt gone up in price relative to pump gas, its still ~$10/gallon.

100LL is $6-7

*obviously not for the streets. Thats about as illegal as the car modifications :nono:

Race car, race gas. Whats the issue?

just egging you on for an overdue lunch meeting :biggrin:

but only intended as accepting it being your decision and not wanting to bog up the thread past what was expressed previously. :)
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Just wanted to throw in some input on the "witches brew". First off, your build is absolutely gorgeous attention to detail is of OEM class.


I did some very basic premix testing myself and I just wanted to add it here if anyone comes across this in the future.

I have had concerns in my own build that the W/M injection is washing the oil film off of the housing causing accelerated wear. This was determined after opening my motor after 1100 miles and seeing more wear than expected on my brand new series 6 housings.

I first tried the elementary idea of putting premix in my w/m:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...3ae5481e5a.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...bb49baa395.jpg


Needless to say that didn't work (obviously). Water and oil do not mix even if you get the nicest synthetic you want lol.

I did do a test of the redline mixed in some standard 93 pump gasoline which mixed as expected with no settling/separation after 72 hours.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...53f1cda81a.jpg


For now I have resorted to a 3oz to 1 gallon premix ratio or 50:1. I have selected this premix level based off of chainsaws/dirtbikes (not kidding). The car smells a little premixy but I would rather burn more premix than risk accelerated housing wear as I do not really have a way of pre-mixing my injection system.

Have you thought about this with your Water injection? Do you have any concerns about "over" spraying the engine?

Lastly, Please let me know if you would like me to remove this posting as I know you have a very detailed thread here and I do not want to fill it with useless information.

Thank you,

Michael

Howdy Michael and thanks post... which is far from "useless information." For that matter, it's particularly helpful since I continue to grapple with the decision to incorporate WI. I appreciate all perspectives and insights. Please keep 'em coming.

To your question, adding a combination of solvents (e.g., ethanol, methanol, and/or water) into the intake charge exponentially complications understand the effects (as mentioned in post above). Before I proceed, I will need to better understand the film-washing effect. Suspect this will take some time so as to no "overspray the engine".

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...a1d9b6f8a.jpeg
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hi Carlos, long time! Hope you have been well.

Do you have the paperwork from the Cusco upper mounts, for the pillowball spacer/collar part number(s) for them to mate up with the Penske 8300s?

Did you have to order the upper spring perches from them, or Penske?

From where did you order the Cusco mounts?

Thanks in advance!

"I specifically wanted to understand the Heat of Evaporation cooling impact of different setups."

happy to oblige. here's a piece of a recent log from a couple of days ago. the temperature data is generated by thermocouples so it is real rather than fantasy.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...924/oXyUUK.png


i picked the last data point before an armadillo ran across the road and the TPS slacked off. ( actually would have liked to flatten the armadillo as they dig up my yard but also like my splitter and nose). so 7440, 15.4 psi. right at 500 rwhp.

note the three plots in the second graph. they are temp out of the turbo before the intercooler, IAT at the OE location and the third is the AI pressure.

temp thru the turbo (G40-1150) rises from 150 F to 273.6 F at 7440. this is slightly better (lower) than my EFR 9180. note the IAT at the OE location is 90.7 F. if you look at the bottom graph, my Math Channel, the subtraction is done for you, 184.9 F removed from the turbo output.

how much of that number is from the intercooler and how much from the AI?

a really good intercooler can remove 67% of the temp diff between the ambient and heated turbo output. when we refer to ambient we are not using the outside air temp. we use the temp at the air filter. mine is 105 F. if your air filter is anywhere near your intercooler add at least 20 F.

doing the math to solve for my IAT without my meth AI:

273.6 -X/273..6- 105 = .67

X= 160.7 F

without my AI and assuming my IC is 67% efficient my IAT would have been 160.7 F...

160.7 - 90.7 = 70F

my meth AI dropped my IAT 70 F

my IC dropped temps 114.9 F

this is at less than 16 psi. things will look more interesting at 30.

i am running two M15 traditional nozzles which is the reason my AI pressure is low. i figure i am doing around 600 cc into the motor. i can turn up delivery by changing the settings but am happy at present.

there’s no doubt that methanol cools the charge, but immagonna break out the pointy spear again and question how “real” it is without actual temp sensors at the appropriate positions. :suspect:
.

"how “real” it is without actual temp sensors at the appropriate positions"

actual temp sensors are type K thermocouples

appropriate position ould be the OE location.

?

you should try that run without the AI and then we could, you know, compare the two.

Why do we need to compare to understand this? Don't pure methanol cars not even require intercoolers?

Add it in and measure temps. If temps aren't good, then adjust the fluid and or flow

Enquiring minds want to know if the Dragon cherry was finally popped … :suspect:
.

I know 😃

DGRR... the GOAT weekend!
 

Indeed sir, cherry popped, mind blown! The 15-hour drive home from DGRR afforded lots of reflection on the DGRR:

• What a fantastic community of enthusiasts and friends. To the person: generous, engaging, and just good people. Personally, the highlight was hanging with (many decades old) friends from across the country... and meeting some awesome new friends. My oldest friend, Dale Clark, set me up with getting to know a house full of new friends (hey, Steven Stephen, and Stevie, Tito, Jim, and the gang). Breaking bread, helping each other out, talking shop, and driving like Valkeries... rotary Valhalla!
• The Dragon is just simply epic. Of the many roads and tracks I've driven, it's as technical and well-designed as any. The ubiquitous guardrail-less cliff dropoffs add to the spiciness of the drive!! Again, on the drive back, I was thinking how similar to an autocross with sheer rock walls and dropoff cliffs medians in lieu of cones it was. Nowhere to put down any real power, so 2nd and 3rd gear predominate. Oh, but the banking and flow... sublime!!
• The collective events and their cars were humbling. Pick your poison, 12A, 13B, 20B, 26B, and swaps... they were present in awesome packs. Phil Sohn put together a master class in planning and rotary appreciation!
• Finally, the Spic Racer ran like a scorched cat... well, a wiper-less cat in the rain. Especially since the first two days of driving the Dragon and the Skyway required wipers and a snorkel. I had none. Add to that a Weldon fuel pump running at max blast (awaiting PWM tuning) that required earplugs for every drive, new Kumho V730 that are known to be below-average rain tires, and it was a "big boy experience". As a very well-known (and now proven intrepid) member of this Forum said, when he asked to ride with me on the first day, it was "an authentic ride"!!
• Perhaps the only regret of the weekend was that I missed introducing myself to Mr. Coleman. The whirlwind of people and events distracted me from the first meeting. Hopefully, next time Howard...
• All and all, clearly the Greatest of All Time weekends for me!

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...c13e29dbda.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...0b6cc63fc7.jpg
Yes... so many fill-up I stopped closing the fuel lid! ;)


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...9f5be0012f.jpg

Great seeing you again and awesome seeing the car alive and kicking ass!

And, yes, that Weldon fuel pump....it goes to 11!

Dale

Congrats Carlos!
Happy to see this car driving again

I've really got to try to do DGRR next year!

Awesome Time!!
 

Its was funny, Stevie made the comment as were idling behind you at a stop light " Dad, Carlos's fuel pump is louder than your exhaust" :nod:



Man, it was awesome meeting you Bro!
A true pleasure to hang out and chat about rotaries, tuning and military life stories.
Look forward to seeing ya at another great DGRR in the future https://www.rx7club.com/images/smilies/icon_tup.gif




Steve

We'd love to have you, Pete!

Carlos, how's the car doing after you got home? Or is it still locked in the garage until you come down from Rotary Overdose Weekend?

Dale

@estevan62274 Sir, the pleasure was ALL mine. Now I can't wait to see you and Stevie next year in the 20B! Regarding everyone's favorite Air Raid Siren (i.e. Weldon pump), I tested it at idle with only 20% duty cycle, and it remarkably almost sounded like a normal pump. Tuning the fuel pressure PID for the pump will be at the top of my priorities once I get Shane's attention.

Dale, thank you again for your invaluable "Rotary Sherpa" help and for introducing me to such an incredible group of good guys! And yes, the FD has sat since the DGRR rotary as a result of rotary satiation. However, I've started pestering Shane to help me finish the tuning. We've got E50 start-up and idle, initial launch and traction control maps, and the aforementioned fuel pump PWM setup before we get back to the Alamo dyno. The only outstanding decision is whether I'll swap out the ancient GT40 (67 lbs/min) to an upgraded GTX40 (82 lbs/min), a relatively simple super-core swap before the dyno.

Pete, words fail me (an exceedingly rare phenomenon) in describing how eric DGRR is. I assure you, you'll have the best car time of your life. ''nuf said!

Of course the BIG mod I'm wondering about is....

Wipers? :)

LOVE YA BUDDY

Dale

Wipers.... we don't need not sinkin wipers...
just just need to good faster!! :cool:

For what its worth... I also took the wipers off my car lol

Crispy "Smaug's" Mazdaspeed horde
 

DGRR isn't cheap. Just ask Dale about his single turbo covet, or the jewel that Crispy "Smaug" is letting me "steal" from his Mazdaspeed horde.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...aceea78547.jpg
My Mazdaspeed jewel from the horde

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...5cd35b23c6.jpg
Crispy 'Smaug's' Mazdaspeed horde

Nice! I have that MS bar on my car, bought it back when it wasn't a big deal :). Also have the REAR bar.....

And the 8374 kit just got ordered....damn that was one expensive trip!

Dale

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...152ea3736.jpeg
Had to share the post to the RX-7 Facebook group I shared with Carlos yesterday..... :)

That's Carlos' car with the racing stripes. Good times!

Dale

Carlos, I can’t seem to find any information on what side alternator mount you’re using?
.

Thanks for the flashback Mr Clark. I see myself and my accomplice, Dean Colver, shooting shit in the background. Gotta admit I still get warm and fuzzy when I see the stripes. Good times

Team, unfortunately/fortunately, the alternator location was a custom design that a certain Brembo Chief Engineer came up with before he sold the car as a roller to me. It does sit nice and low, doesn't it!

I almost guessed it right; figured it to be a Rohan design, making it just as impossible to find …
.

Things that make you go, "Hmmmm"?!
 

I asked Klotz tech support which premix they recommended in my application...

<Carlos> "Which Klotz pre-mix do you recommend for a E50 fueled 13B rotary turbo engine? The fuel may sit in the tank up to a month at a time. Many thanks, Carlos"

<Jeff @ Klotz> "Carlos, I would recommend our Uplon Fuel Lube (KL-107)."

Gonna have to give this a bit more thought.

I was using an upper lube in addition to Redline premix, was never sure enough to try running upper lube alone

been leaning towards the new Bio-Rotary premix, just wish there was more feedback than the promoted promoter, the few people running it here seem satisfied to date though.
.

I suppose the question is; how much do you use oz/gal if using it as a straight up premix? Because as a top lube the 1/2 oz/gal recommendation is fairly standard. I was using that in addition to 1 oz/gal of Redline premix

which btw the standard Redline premix is rated for up to E50. For higher ethanol levels they recommend switching to their alcohol specific premix.
.

That was also my first thought, though I would consider a slightly higher rate. I'll need to delve a little further before I trust my minty engine to this new alchemy,

Motec 15-Button Keypad
 

Hell ya bro! Love it!!
but where’s the wipers button? :D

Steve

.