The spending doesn't stop.

And there won't be another argument in here. So Rat and Peter, you two can just ignore each other. Thanks in advance for cooperating.

Richard, if you need anything edited then just PM me and I will edit the post for you. And thank you for coming to this forum and sharing anything and everything that you can.


Zach

I also have experiance of the MSD knock detector. its very simple and very effictive. It also gives an audiable warning as well as the display.


if you plan to tune or have your motor tuned to the edge with WI/AI then a good egt gauge is needed.

Scott

Can you explain ??

Scott

It dosent!! :wallbash:

yeah I'm putting only one egt preturbo right now and it's on the rear runner but will be one on the front later on. Figured I would just tune to the hotter of the two that way I know I will be safe.

Good idea. I also flow tested my injectors and was advised to fit the richer to the rear

Scott

ahhh good idea, thanks for the tip. I'll do the same. Any other good tips :)

Good thread.

I think I'll start with water because it won't mess up my afr's right?

I know my car well on pump-I basicly wash it with extra fuel or she goes boom past 12 afr. I run High 10's to keep it safe. The worst that has happened is a misfire sub 10.5.

How lean does it have to be to benift from WI ?
Will I keep the timing the same or will that need to shift too? (12deg@19psi)

Thanks

laugh a little!
 

GASOLINE is for washing parts!


ALCOHOL is for drinking!!


NITRO is for racing!!?

Water is a good starting point and tbh there is still no reason why not to stay with it. MAny people find it the winning formular. I think that if you get the fuel map afr's spot on and the water delivery spot on you can achieve lots. The main advantge with methanol is its ability to cool the intake temp. It is also a fuel so if you inject lots of it you will be incorperating it into your base fuel map ( which is no bad thing if its monitored )

We all know Gasoline is a dirty cheap fuel for running cars when compared to alchs but its all we currently have ( on a wide scale )

Scott

When pushed to limits:

*Methanol detonates
*Water does not

I have proved this in racing 0.21CU engine test bed I have
3.5bhp
40000rpm
175deg C engine temps
*Methanol does auto ignite and shatter glow plug elements (I have done this 3 times)

Pure Methanol with 30% Nitro Methane and you need to run quite rich and with lower compression ratio to avoid detonation. In petrol AFR terms you battle to make a motor live when any leaner than 11.7:1

I have a min WI system on my test engine and it has let me increase compression back to what it should be for maximum power and also let me use the leaner AFR seeting too again for better power and more run time (efficiency)

When I get a chance will post up some data if people are interested, but can 100% say after some real testing at outer limits that water injection helps a pure methanol car go to another level and makes it much much more reliable while also giving it greater performance........ sure its 1/8th scale but its all relative ;)

As an add on Water is a power/reliability adder, methanol is not ! though it is easier for some to get working hence its popularity I guess?

I'm very interested in seeing some data as well as seeing some numbers regarding water injection.

Mostly interested in real world pump gas compression ratios/timing/AFRs
Do you run strait water? Distilled water? Any alky in it?

I have been reading around a lot and over on the GN forum it was said that if you inject water into too cold of an intake charge it will cool less because it does not vaporize. I believe most of the people there are interested in bolt on kits, but what about tuning in more advance timing or boost to compensate for this?

If you're interested in real world data instead of alleged claims, head over to the Auxiliary Injection section in the Rotary Performance area. Check out the 80/20 thread that Howard started, for starters.

B

Water, the substance that firefighters use to squelch combustion, is a "power adder"?

B

I think we can get misslead in this persute. We are after in cylinder cooling and water is the best at doing that..

lets not get another thread shut down

I'm not after that. I'm after a measure of that, true, but also a way of artificially increasing the effective octane of the fuel I'm using.

B

Who cares about octane?

If water/meth/alky/propane/whatever yeilds higher horsepower reliably -I say use that.

water has 2 HYDROGEN Atoms, and only 1 oxygen atom, maybe something going on there? could the process of combustion start to crack them Atoms, and still make power, without the combustion getting out of control??

Yup

Ask Renault and Ferrari Engineers, World championships have been one in F1, & touring cars across the globe using WI as a power enhancer not a power reducer as iditoic internet authorities type in free air space.

NOT wannabe's like yourself ;) and all the GN *experts*

Engineers know what works, clowns know how to wear floppy hats and big shoes :)

Its pretty easy I have proven Methanol can pre ignite very easily when pushed, water does not, you can make more power on water than you can on Methanol (as an add on) so I am not sure why there is still this debate going on? Well I do but I find it quite entertaining so I will continue to read with much humor and correct clowns when I see fit to do so ;) :)

I deffinatley understand the differances between the two substances now.

1) water helps supress detonation by cooling the combustion cycle
2) methonal just increases the octane kind of like using race fuel.

My logic, and again I'm not very smart on this, is that if water is used the wrong way it can reduce power because after all it does not burn like methonal however if done correctly can yield alot of power due to the fact that it cools the combustion process and no matter what will not detonate because it can't be burned (again this is if it's done correctly). methonal is easier to get power because it is a fuel that adds to your octane however just like with any fuel that reaches it's limmits, it can be detonated because after all it does have an octane rating and it does burn. So with this in mind I'd sure like to try water only or a 50/50 mix. Also the tunning involved in doing the 80/20 gas/meth mix is way over my head as well as most tunners probably don't want to sit there and do it. I do however highly admire bdc and howard coleman for what they are doing with methonal. I mean brian just did what 24psi on pump gas and a top mount intercooler using a 60-1? thats insane! Thumbs up to that and if thats not proof enough that methonal can work I don't know what is. I do have a question for rice racing though. I got the 2 lx92 coils and 2 crane boxes however I'm using a microtech lt8 with stock sensors. Whats the best way to make the coils and boxes work with that unit? Thanks.

I think the issue with water injection is, you have to tune to see gains, you dont just slap it on and turn up boost like small meth injection kits.

Actually yes, you are making a fission reaction inside the engine. It gives you 1000000 horsepower, but you have to wear a shiney suit while you drive so you dont get cancer. Kind of like hydrogen powered vehicles.

oh absolutely! I'm guessing either one of them you have to tune for and both can probably get pretty advanced but in my mind (though semi retarded) I think water has better potential because it doesn't add octane (witch can be denonated) but removes heat.

NO not the case at all.

Total falicies perpetuated by people with little ability and the most scary bit no experience in the field...

Good pre turbo WI kit will always yield power increases, I personaly have proven this over many cars for the past 10 years. Put it on, turn up boost and dont touch the tune........ how much power you want is down to the mechanical strength of the engine and how much your fuel system can support ;)

Even third party *technical magazines* have run articles on pre turbo WI when addapted to semi normal cars and have documented improvments in vehicle acceleration times (notable ones).

I have said it for many years now but address your ignition system (or lack of it) bolt on a proven WI kit and prepare to be blown away with how much simple reliable *non head fuck* power you will make....... no rubbish with needing to pay money for alcohol, no hassels, minimal added complexity.

Remember this:

Methanol detonates & Water does not Water can make much more power than methanol can ever hope to match, and it will do it with proven lower levels of peak pressure stress and more average BMEP. Any decent engineer will tell you this, let me know how many Methanol injected compound turbocharged 250psi tractor pullers you see next time your at the track ;) you wont find many but you will find the majority with water injection ! Petrol, Diesle, Gas turbines ALL USE WATER INJECTION TO INCREASE POWER & REDUCE STRESS does not matter if its a F1 car, Truck, or aero plane there is one common thing here........

Internet battlers and wannabe AI injection experts can go on till the cows come home about meth injection but its crap by comparison as it does not meet the basics demanded by people who have brains in this field ;)