need to put this thread on rcc too richard!!! congrats on what you have gotten soo far! pre-turbo A/I is the way to go!

Geezzz. cannot wait for update. You need to get vids

Nothing to report yet, just in the process of changing the turbo.

After replacing the rear rotor with a non-dented one (again, pulled only the back off the engine), I dynoed with the BW turbo. 560 rwhp on 26psi. This time water flow is not restricted, nozzle is at full flow. From past experience less water made more hp, so I suppose it's a really conservative tune now. The engine sounds 10x better with a non-dented rotor haha and seems to be happy at that power level. Maybe 20+ dyno pulls at 560hp.

I was about to up the boost some more but the water tank split and caused the engine to knock at peak torque! The compression reading has not changed so hopefully the engine is still good. Time will tell.

BTW full boost is reached at 5500rpm. Not bad I thought for a basically stock port engine running pump gas and a full exhaust. Plus I now know that pre turbo WI makes the turbo spool slower. I don't think it will be a problem however, rpm does not drop below 6200rpm between gears.

What BW are you on?

S475 i think he wrote in another post. very good power .could you post the dyno graph from the old turbo comparing it to the new s475 turbo. i would like to see how the bw spools.

I searched for a sec but might have missed it. Graphs would be nice to see.

[QUOTE=JZG;11007910]I was about to up the boost some more but the water tank split and caused the engine to knock at peak torque! The compression reading has not changed so hopefully the engine is still good. Time will tell.QUOTE]

Thanks for the info on this thread.
Did you try testing your tank before you installed it? Wondering at what PSI it split.
I had my 4-qt tank from Devils Own up to 25psi testing and it held fine.

Awesome numbers on the dyno.

*Edit* Sorry, forgot that you were running a metal tank. Not a plastic one.

Went back on the dyno quickly after repairing the WI tank and the engine is still good at the same power level. With some larger injectors I'm confident it'll go over 600rwhp easily, the engine is exceptionally quiet at this point.

Yes BW 475 turbo

And yes alloy WI tank which I tested to 40psi when I made it. It split down the center of a weld, probably from the constant expansion/contraction. I'll make a thicker one later. Current boost level is 26psi.

I'll scan a dyno plot with a comparison to the 60-1 turbo when I get a moment.


BTW the turbo is spitting some water back out the intake at high rpm which makes me wonder if it's getting close to surge. Any ideas?

surge maybe , maybe also to much water.

9.43 A 145mph. Humidity was unusually high and air pressure very low, so the turbo wouldn't make full boost (it seems the wastegate spring must have been maxed at 26psi on the dyno). 24psi was all it would manage + I had taken ignition timing out just to be safe. The track surface was average which meant the half track times suffered.
Considering the conditions I'm happy with the times.

jeeeeeezzzzussssss fuuuukkkkkkknnnnnn shhhhhttttt that thing is hauling! Any pics?

Grat vid, look good:)

Wow...that thing is smooth, straight, fast. Love it!

9.11 @ 149.9mph.

Also put it over the scales at the track out of curiosity and it weighs 2309lb.
Really close to that 8 sec pass now but it may have to be done with no exhaust as I think it is becoming a restriction now. Or maybe we could pull the seats etc out.

This thread dosnt get nearly enough attention.. So close to a 8sec pass.:icon_tup: Props man.

This thing is a beast! I'm still amazed at what you were able to accomplish with a 60-1 on stock ports

Well the final meeting of the season was a bit of a disaster. The track was not good all day and after several oil downs and timing gear problems we only got 2 runs in. The first was a 9.3 at 143 backing off due to wheel spin in the top end, and the 2nd 9.07 at 151 point something mph! So close to that 8 sec pass yet so far!
Nevermind, I think I'll build a half decent engine over the off season and the plan is to switch to E85 now and give that a go as I'm curious to learn about it. Maybe I'll start a thread about it.

All in all I'm real happy with the WI and pump gas. It's cheap, simple, reliable, and easy to set up. There is no compressor blade erosion at all with the Borg Warner either. In the end I got up to 590hp at the wheels but it must have a restriction somewhere as any extra boost over 28psi made no more hp at all. It still made exactly the same hp at 33psi! I'm wondering if it might be the limit of pump gas with near stock porting.

Anyway, onwards and upwards with E85 now...

Hi, I know you side your using the sua25 air atomising nozzle but would you know what part number you used for the fluid cap and air cap?

wish a disaster would befall me

I guess. If water allows you to run 33 psi on a basically stock engine without blowing it up, what is E85 really bringing to the table? other than of course the need for ridiculous injectors :lol:

Yea that probably sounded a but weird. I'm actually really happy with the car in general considering it's the turbo setup I've done making more than 450hp. I'm very happy to go from a mid 11 second first pass to a 9.0 within one season of racing.

I have no idea how E85 will go, but if nothing else it'll lower temps. I'll probably try WI with it at some point, out of curiosity.

Well if anyone is interested I decided to stick with water injection and pump gas out of curiosity and a couple of days ago on the dyno made 740hp at the wheels on 36psi!! (did run a high as 38psi at one point) This was not safe hp however so it wasn't a high rpm dyno pull, and I'm fairly sure it was barely controlled pre-ignition that was making the extra power (Howard Coleman will cover this anomaly at some point). However the engine did it no trouble and we went racing the following day with a lot less power (first race of the season). To cut a long story short I ended up going in circles on the dyno so didn't really have a good tune up for racing, plus the wastegate decided to play up at the last minute so boost control was a bit hit and miss, and thanks to a crazy hot day 60ft times were 1.5 tenths slower than usual. Even so the car still ran 9.1@153.4mph and that's with about 130lb more weight in the car than last time we raced (9.0 at 151). So I'm guessing about 620hp, that's about 30-40hp up from last time. This is full street trim, full interior, full exhaust, but running slick tires.

So I think that once I sort out the wastegate and get a good day at the track we should be able to crack the 8 sec bracket.

I'll post up the dyno sheet when I get a chance to scan it.

The setup is basically the same as last season but I did build a better condition engine over the off season. Still using used parts it's still a T2 engine using T2 intake/throttle body, only I switched to 8.5 rotors and a reasonable street/extend port this time.

Completely sick!!! Very badass numbers, times, and mph!!!

Thats sweet man. Time to step up the intake and throttle body.

Dyno sheet from Friday

Looking good, did you say this was at 34psi?

can you re-post the sheet so the X line is in RPM rather than Km/h?

howard

Howard, next time I'm at the dyno I'll see if I can print another sheet with rpm on it. To give you an idea the end of the run above was about 7500rpm from memory, instead of the 9000rpm we we're usually pulling to.

8.86@154.7mph
Still street legal in full street trim, full exhaust, all glass, leaf springs, 26x8.5 tire, H pattern, and most importantly 93octane pump gas with water injection.

Wow that's insane. Congrats guys

Incredible thread. My little 60-1 only made 282 rwhp at 12 psi on the stock TII motor. What's your secret ingredient!

So are the power gains from running WI pre turbo rather than right before the throttle body?

There is no secret, just a combination that works. And a lot of dyno time. And remember i was running 29psi (dropping to 25psi) to make 520hp with the 60-1.

Brian I don't know if there is any difference between pre and post turbo WI as I've only tried pre turbo. In theory both achieve the same end result (knock suppression), however it seems pre turbo can extend the compressor map somewhat when trying to get the most out of the turbo at higher boost levels. It also makes the turbo slightly laggier due to the increased mass the blades have to move, but this is more than offset by the compressor map extension and the simplicity of pre turbo vs post turbo.

Lol... This thing at TX2k14!?!?

JZG, is this the New Zealand Wagon run with the conjunction of Green Brothers?

yes

Time for an update.

With an 80mm BW turbo fitted power jumped up some. Dyno plot is at 40psi.
The car has now trapped 161mph but only run slightly quicker in ET. It seems what it's gained in hp it's lost in 1/2 track performance, probably because it on 26x8.5's with leaf springs. With heavier wastegate springs I think the engine will take 45psi no problem.

Pre turbo water injection is working better than I could have ever hoped for!

BTW power drops away after peak torque because the tires start slipping on the roller at that point. In reality power doesn't start to drop until 9000rpm or so.

Thanks for posting all the good information.

Are you still on 4 stock turboII trailing coils?

Ever thought about removing the intercooler and increase the amount of water?

We switched to IGN coils a while back, and are now testing an ICE ignition.

I haven't considered removing the intercooler. Water injection amount is already high, and in my experience it doesn't really cool the intake charge much at all, even with a 50/50 mix of water and methanol. Removing the intercooler would save 35lbs though!

Mentioned the no intercooler thing since you mentioned running e85. Posted some info in the Auxiliary fuel section.

My DYI water system was not up to the task on a full out pass.

Where the IGN coils a considerable improvement over the FC coils? I've been inspired by sleeper7, and plan on running FC coils on a direct fire setup.

Sorry, forgot to mention I'm still running pump petrol. I never got around to trying E85 in the end.

Yes the IGN coils seemed to be better, all things being equal. Hard to say how much of an improvement though because I went around in circles with different spark plugs as hp increased and ignition requirements changed.

ever considered trying 50/50 w/m mix instead of 100% water? wonder what it would bring, you might have to slightly lean out the tune to start at the same afr, but the methanol contains quite some oxygen which brings power at equal charge desnity ratio =)

Thing is you have have to inject alot more of the total fluid to keep the knock down cause water alone does a much better job to keep the knock down compared to the same volume of 50/50, as I found out.

I see. but from the other side methanol ads oxidizer which makes power.. how do you measure knock, or do you listen with a stethoscope?

I don't know how many times this has been covered, but here we go again.

Methanol or any alcohol is not an oxidiser. Consider it more as a fuel which has already been partially burned (or oxidised). It is the additional cool liquid mass of required fuel to match intake air mass which gives a power benefit over pump fuel, basically it is just additional evaporative cooling which increases air mass intake by ~10% nothing more, the extra oxygen is basically a passenger, not a reactant (it has aleady been "reduced" to a lower energy state). Cools intake charge, slower flame progression, cooler peak combustion temps.

Think of methanol more as pump fuel with the water injection already mixed in. :lol:

If he had reached the choke flow limit of the compressor it may give them a few % more mass air flow from charge cooling before the compressor if they put a big shot of meth in front of the turbo, but for a marginal gain it probably isn't worth it when you are dealing with turbos that big and no class restriction. If you wanted to get the most of that effect you would be better off using acetone as it has greater partial pressure for the same temperature anyway, or mix acetone/meth/ethanol for maximum effect.

This observation seems contrary to what was presented in the often cited NACA studies, but an interesting observation nonetheless. Others, including myself, however, have noticed similar WI behavior to what you describe.



^^^Correct. I think there is considerable confusion regarding alcohol's reactions, possibly because of its classification as an Oxygenate when mixed with other fuels. That characterization is somewhat misleading because it doesn't release a bunch of free oxygen that is available for combustion. You'll need Nitro methane for that.

JZG

If you want to leave the line on 15psi and run more in each gear, rather than fit a stiffer gate spring, why not use a 4 port boost solenoid and run boost per gear? I'm sure with the diaphragm area+spring force against even a rising EMP that you would have no worries pushing to 60psi boost on a 15psi spring with a 4 port solenoid which can pressurise the top chamber of the gate to hold it shut.