ignition setup wi or ai and high boost
 

To get the best out of our ignition system when running water and or meth especially, what are people running. Below are some specs I have found of cdi on the net. The three list are crane hi-6, msd6-al, accel 300+
On paper atleast out of these three, the accel 300+ looks the best.
Has anyone got tech specs of their ignition amps to add to this thread.
Please feel free to add info on the type of coils you use and tech spec if available.
Please also add boost you have run without misfire.
Please also list any coils you have fried.

Crane hi-6
Part Number: 6000-6400 BACK TO LIST
Primary Voltage Output 450 volts
Primary Energy Output 1200 millijoules/sequence
Dimensions 8?L x 4-1/2?W x 2?H, 4-1/2 lbs
Operating Voltage 6 to 18 volts, reverse polarity protected, negative ground only
Current Draw 7.0 amps max at 10,000 RPM
Peak Spark Gap Current 380 milliamps with LX91 coil, 510 milliamps with LX92 coil
RPM Limiter Accuracy ?30 RPM
RPM Limiter Range 600 to 9,900 RPM in 100 RPM increments
Timing Accuracy ?0.5 degrees from 500 to 9,900 RPM
Multiple Spark Duration 20? crankshaft rotation below 3,000 RPM. Maximum 12 sparks per seq. with 1 millisecond interval between sparks.


msd 6-al
OPERATING SPECIFICATIONS
Operating Voltage: +10-18 VDC Negative Ground
Current Requirements: 5 Amps-5,000 RPM
10 Amps-10,000 RPM
RPM Range: 15,000 RPM with 14.4 Volts
Spark Duration: 20° Crankshaft Rotation
Energy Output Max: 105-115 mJ Per Spark
Weight and Size: 3 lbs, 8"Lx4"Wx2.25"H
Voltage Output Max: Primary: 460-480 Volts
Secondary: 45,000 Volts (Blaster Coil)

accel 300+
Operating voltage: 8-18 vdc
primary voltage 600v
Primary Energy Output 1500 millijoules/sequence
22 degrees of spark duration Crank rotation
Weight 2.5 lbs
rpm range upto 14,000 rpm
100-500 u sec
rev limt between 4,500-12,000
max input current 6 amps

hey Brian you mindreader:)

i was about to start a similar thread last night. thanks for doing/sharing your work. i really did scope out ignition options when i decided to go AI. i found Summit's online catalog most helpful as they carry serious specs on most of what they sell. i also recommend MSD's site for info and their forum is busy and helpful.

before i list some additional specs let me say that i concluded one of the best overall configurations for our cars was 2 amps and 2 coils. each amp and coil running one lead plug.

my amps are in the driver's side rear compartment and are spaced more than 6 inches apart. i have no other electronics in that area. amps are just big electronic oscillators, and as such, they can really screw w other components. all wires should be shielded. since my battery is in the pass side compartment it is a short trip to the amps...

i did alot of amp research and w the caveat that the specs probably come from the manufacturers...

MSD DIG 6+ ---------535 volts-------.7 amp draw---------output 135 mJ
Crane HI6------------450--------------.7 -------------------------------120 mJ
MSD 6-----------------470--------------1A--------------------------------115 mJ
jacobs 1000---------500---------------1.1-----------------------------125mJ
jacobs 2000---------500---------------1.1-------------------------------125mJ
jacobs 3000---------535----------------1.1------------------------------145mJ

the super cool thing about the Jacobs 3000 is that it cruises on a lower output mode until it senses acceleration and then goes to full output. less fried plugs. i run 2 of them. i recently have been doing inital testing w a combo of my usual pump map w 32% removed and alcohol substituted and have run AFRs as low as 9.0 with absolutely NO misfires. i know their are other options out there so lets hear from you w specs.

i will post some coil info later.

howard coleman

for starters, I run just a MSD 6A on the stock Leading coil.

I inject a mixture of h2o/meth up to 18psi on 93oct (as lean as 12.1-12.3 AFR). I have a simple DIY system with a 309cc nozzle.

I have never had any ignition issues...even running as rich as 10.9 AFR.

your experience w a fairly modest ignition upgrade is very interesting.

Rice indicated that he injects water at around the same 350 cc rate and says you need a ton of ignition for water. admittedly he is running a bit more boost. perhaps the fact that you are running a meth-water combo may be the answer to the fact you aren't misfiring at 18 psi.

hmmm,

howard coleman

I'll add that the mixture is about 70/30. With ignition of 17* leading and 8* split (9's in all around). I chose to run AI for detonation prevention. My AIT are sky high, in the 140F range in Louisiana summer (90+ ambient)

do you split the ignitor signal at the amps?

Did you check base timing on both coils? Any differences noted?

I like the sound of this type of set-up.

Hmmm.. all I upgraded was to a Jacobs Rotary pro Pak.

i ran the lead igniter wire (LG/b) to both amps at the G input wire & the B/w igniter wire to the red input wire. no i haven't checked the timing on both IGLs. i do check my plugs and they look happy.

my single Rotary Pro Pak firing a T2 coil wouldn't fire my pump at 10.0 or lower. the Rotary Pro Pak is the same as the FC 3000. of course i am also running two MSD #8253 killer coils. check not only the output but the duration of the spark of these coils. my current setup fires my pump alcohol at 9.0 AFR.

howard coleman

howard coleman

Leading Coil Option
 

MSD 8204

Brand: MSD Ignition
Product Line: MSD Twin Tower Pro Stock Motorcycle Ignition Coils
Coil Wire Attachment: Female/Socket
Coil Internal Construction: Epoxy
Maximum Voltage: 40,000 V
Turns Ratio: 100:1
Primary Resistance: 1.200 ohms
Secondary Resistance: 11.5K ohms

thought I'd post this info from Summit's site. I know at least two forum members run this for a leading dual post coil.

I had issues running motorcycle (heat range 10) spark plugs with the stock coil...maybe this could be a solution.

Good info guy's, what's more important the coil voltage or the turn ratio, or are they both as important as each other?
I guess the coil voltage obviously affects the burn, as it send greater energy to the spark plug. My understanding is the turn ratio affects the dwell time for the coil to fully charge. If that be the case the coils with higher turn ratio will take longer to fully charge which may not be ideal for cars that rev to say
8,000 - 9,000 rpm. If the coil is not fully charge before sending energy to the spark plugs then indirectly the dwell also affects the burn. Are there other factors that affect dwell time in a coil other than turn ratio?
What helps to fry a coil by running to both leading plug rather than each leading plug having it's own individual plug?
This extra spark energy generated from either an ignition amp, and or a good set of coils does this have a greater affect with alcohol, a mix, or water ?
Water slows down the burn speed, which is magnified somewhat by the long combustion chamber in a rotary, but the extra spark energy I presume would speed up the burn considerably, more so than a longer spark duration. If my thinking is correct then with a really good ignition setup, we should not need to run much timing to get really good power. Typically running water or alcohol injection we run more advance partly to help with having a slower burn, but with the above i'm not sure it's really necessary. let me know your thoughts.

Here is another ignition amp by Mallory. This one has more features than some, which I guess can be bad thing, as there is more to go wrong, but certainly sounds interesting.

Mallory
HYFIRE VIIS SPORTSMAN RACING IGNITION
HYFIRE (r) VIIS Sportsman Racing CD Ignition Features At A Glance: Two rev limiters - adjustable from 1,000 to 12,000 RPM in 100 RPM increments. Single stage retard - adjustable from .1 to 25 degrees. Automatic start retard. 550 volts to coil primary, 150 mJ per spark. Easy reading top mounted digital display. Simple push-button adjustability. Easy to upgrade for more features. See catalog for more specs and dimensions.
Model Number: 667S

I'm glad this thread got started as i'm going to go ahead and ditch my single msd 6a box. My last tuning session with steve kan was cut a little short on time and power as we found an ignition breakup in higher rpms in 3rd and 4th gear. I was only pushing 350rwhp but had the msd 6a, brand new trailing plugs all around, new wires and coil was in good condition. Since I'm shooting for about 100 to 150rwhp over the last setup I'm sure the ignition system is not going to hold up to those numbers so I believe I will be going with 2 crane HI-6 and 2 lx92 coils.

These are in direct relation.

simple example: 12V gets a coil with 100:1 turn ratio...1200V gets to the spark plug (minus plug wire restance)

14V gets to a coil with 80:1...1120V gets to the plug

Now, I can't quite remember all of my electronics homework...and it's been some time since I've evaulated transformer equations so I don't remember how that effects dwell time. The ECU has an effect on dwell time...with a Hatech, you can change dwell time (to get a more powerful spark), I don't think that is possible with a PFC.

Since howard coleman has more experience with cars and engineering...I'm judging by his excitement about the 8253 duration, I think duration is pretty important with our long chamber.

My understanding about more advanced timing is to ignite the mixture at an increased chamber pressure (closer to TDC) creating a more powerful explosion...someone please correct me if I'm missing the boat.

I run very low levels of timing compared to what I have been reading here for some, + the power is very high.

The same for one user who had an Autronic 500R CDI that recorded 590bhp on engine dyno (13 deg leading advance) greater ign advance did not yield gains, they ran lots of tests on this.

Peter

Running aquamist (0.9mm nozzle) injecting windshield wiper fluid (meth/water, not sure on the mix) and at 15-16 psi I was having ignition problems at 10.8 AFRs past 7k rpms, running ngk 10.5 race leading, 9s trailing and a jacobs rotary pro pack amp. leaned it out to 11.3 and it seemed to help, 11.5 and it cleared up.

I run 2x 1mm Aquamist nozzles that inject pure water right in front of the throttle body. For a total flow of about 620-640 cc/m @torque peak. I step down the flow 15%-20% per 1000rpm both above and below torque peak. With a HKS twin fire ignition box, NGK wires and NGK 10.5’s all the way around. I haven’t had any problems with break up to 25 psi. I have run as much as 27 psi on this set up, but when I ran that psi I wasn’t checking for break up. The only thing I cared at that moment was that it didn’t blow up, and that I was in the lead.

Hm, so is it safe to say that with one 0.9mm aquamist nozzle I am injecting around 300cc? It's a 1s system (constant injection) with their heavy duty pump that comes with the 2d/s system.

lol, was that on pump gas? Nice numbers. how long did you keep that boost pressure up for?

Thats great to read since I have the same ign set up in my FD :) New engine/turbo and WI go online in matter of weeks :) :) :) :)

Was worried if the HKS DLI would cut it compared to Autronic and Crane I have used previously with great results.

And yes it gets a bit scary when you nudge 2.0bar levels on pump and WI regardless of how much faith/experience you have :) Good to know you can do it reliably ;) I will never forget reading about one mate who spent a whole dyno session on 1.9bar on Shell Optimax !!!! amazing.

Hey Pimp Hand,

What AFR's with water were you able to strike off (richest setting) on that high boost level (with HKS DLI)?

Richest I have managed with Crane set up and Autronic is around 10.5:1 to get clean running engine with no misfires.

Peter

Presumably my ignition amp is working very well then.
I can run mid 9's before I get ignition break up with accel 300+ ngk 8mm wires stock coils and ngk 11's plugs. I will be chaning my coil to a better setup and my ht leads also hence this thread.
I'm a believer that if an engine is strong and healthy you don't need to run much advance to get good power but I think when we start injecting water and or alcohol with a good ignition setup for more energy to initiate the spark, though loads of timing advance is practised in these types of setups I don't thinks it's all that necessary.
When I made 478 @1.2 bar on dyno dynamics this was without the water injection hooked up and flattiming of 11 degrees advance.

That depends on the psi the nozzle see's. (remember to compensate for boost) If i remember corectly Aquamist nozzles are rated at 100 psi. I run the race pump with a booster pump to increse flow.

Pump 93 OCT gas. The run was probly 10-15 sec's long. 40mph -110 or so.

I’m not quite sure what is the richest afr it will strike, with this water flow. I haven’t tested how rich i can run it with this amount of water. Because i step down water flow both above and below torque peak. So I only see 100% flow between 6000rpm - 7000rpm.

I have incrementally stepped up water flow and decreased AFR.

At that boost level...I sure hope it didn't take that long ;)