Am i spraying too little water?
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
Hello Olle,
congrats on putting together a nice FD power package.
if your turbo is a T70 and you were doing 19 psi and had the comp map maxxed you were making 70 pounds per minute which translates to 527 SAE rwhp.
70 pounds of air at 10.75 AFR is 6.51 pounds of gas/6.35 = 1.025 gallons per minute.
3880 CC/Min.
850 +1680 X2 = 5060 CC/Min minus lag (X.87) = 4402
water subtracts fuel BTUs but given the modest amount at that time it isn't a major reduction.
all of these calcs assume maximized parameters, for instance perfect ignition. of course i am also assuming your turbo is a T70.
if it is a T70 your duty cycle 88% is too high for the airflow and AFR. do you log fuel pressure? i consider logging fuel pressure to be essential as it will tell you the net state of your fuel delivery system when you need to know it.... under boost. you may have a pressure fall off.
it has come to my attention that there has been some ground breaking research done re the correct injectant for boosted motors.
in 1944.
executive summary:
water (is good for 18 psi)
water methanol (about 50/50) is good for about 30 psi
see Barry Bordes thread.
as to spark plugs.... i build rotaries... i disassemble lots of them and they all have stories to tell based on the forensics. 9 heat range plugs have no place in a modded boosted rotary as they retain too much heat at the spark plug boss. the rotor housings need to be flat so they provide a perfect mating surface for the apex seal. heat buildup at the boss raises the area and pushes the apex seal off the housing. the cooler you can keep this area the better, anytime the apex seal is off the housing it loses the ability to transfer heat to the housing resulting in warpage to the apex seal. of course compression is also lost. cold plugs decrease boss build.
there are certain items that must take precedence... cold plugs are near the top of the list. if you can't fire them then the ignition needs to be upgraded. BTW, there is alot of crap out there in the ignition space so do serious research. your ignition should fire cleanly at 10.0 AFR at 30 PSI w water meth... if not, re-engineer it as that's where the power is.
howard
congrats on putting together a nice FD power package.
if your turbo is a T70 and you were doing 19 psi and had the comp map maxxed you were making 70 pounds per minute which translates to 527 SAE rwhp.
70 pounds of air at 10.75 AFR is 6.51 pounds of gas/6.35 = 1.025 gallons per minute.
3880 CC/Min.
850 +1680 X2 = 5060 CC/Min minus lag (X.87) = 4402
water subtracts fuel BTUs but given the modest amount at that time it isn't a major reduction.
all of these calcs assume maximized parameters, for instance perfect ignition. of course i am also assuming your turbo is a T70.
if it is a T70 your duty cycle 88% is too high for the airflow and AFR. do you log fuel pressure? i consider logging fuel pressure to be essential as it will tell you the net state of your fuel delivery system when you need to know it.... under boost. you may have a pressure fall off.
it has come to my attention that there has been some ground breaking research done re the correct injectant for boosted motors.
in 1944.
executive summary:
water (is good for 18 psi)
water methanol (about 50/50) is good for about 30 psi
see Barry Bordes thread.
as to spark plugs.... i build rotaries... i disassemble lots of them and they all have stories to tell based on the forensics. 9 heat range plugs have no place in a modded boosted rotary as they retain too much heat at the spark plug boss. the rotor housings need to be flat so they provide a perfect mating surface for the apex seal. heat buildup at the boss raises the area and pushes the apex seal off the housing. the cooler you can keep this area the better, anytime the apex seal is off the housing it loses the ability to transfer heat to the housing resulting in warpage to the apex seal. of course compression is also lost. cold plugs decrease boss build.
there are certain items that must take precedence... cold plugs are near the top of the list. if you can't fire them then the ignition needs to be upgraded. BTW, there is alot of crap out there in the ignition space so do serious research. your ignition should fire cleanly at 10.0 AFR at 30 PSI w water meth... if not, re-engineer it as that's where the power is.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; Jun 5, 2012 at 07:34 PM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
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From: Stockholm
Olle L,
You might want to check this thread on quantity and effects of injectorants.
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/conservative-limits-injectorants-1000500/
Barry
You might want to check this thread on quantity and effects of injectorants.
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/conservative-limits-injectorants-1000500/
Barry
That´s a new thread for me =)
Thread Starter
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: Stockholm
Hello Olle,
congrats on putting together a nice FD power package.
if your turbo is a T70 and you were doing 19 psi and had the comp map maxxed you were making 70 pounds per minute which translates to 527 SAE rwhp.
70 pounds of air at 10.75 AFR is 6.51 pounds of gas/6.35 = 1.025 gallons per minute.
3880 CC/Min.
850 +1680 X2 = 5060 CC/Min minus lag (X.87) = 4402
water subtracts fuel BTUs but given the modest amount at that time it isn't a major reduction.
all of these calcs assume maximized parameters, for instance perfect ignition. of course i am also assuming your turbo is a T70.
if it is a T70 your duty cycle 88% is too high for the airflow and AFR. do you log fuel pressure? i consider logging fuel pressure to be essential as it will tell you the net state of your fuel delivery system when you need to know it.... under boost. you may have a pressure fall off.
it has come to my attention that there has been some ground breaking research done re the correct injectant for boosted motors.
in 1944.
executive summary:
water (is good for 18 psi)
water methanol (about 50/50) is good for about 30 psi
see Barry Bordes thread.
as to spark plugs.... i build rotaries... i disassemble lots of them and they all have stories to tell based on the forensics. 9 heat range plugs have no place in a modded boosted rotary as they retain too much heat at the spark plug boss. the rotor housings need to be flat so they provide a perfect mating surface for the apex seal. heat buildup at the boss raises the area and pushes the apex seal off the housing. the cooler you can keep this area the better, anytime the apex seal is off the housing it loses the ability to transfer heat to the housing resulting in warpage to the apex seal. of course compression is also lost. cold plugs decrease boss build.
there are certain items that must take precedence... cold plugs are near the top of the list. if you can't fire them then the ignition needs to be upgraded. BTW, there is alot of crap out there in the ignition space so do serious research. your ignition should fire cleanly at 10.0 AFR at 30 PSI w water meth... if not, re-engineer it as that's where the power is.
howard
congrats on putting together a nice FD power package.
if your turbo is a T70 and you were doing 19 psi and had the comp map maxxed you were making 70 pounds per minute which translates to 527 SAE rwhp.
70 pounds of air at 10.75 AFR is 6.51 pounds of gas/6.35 = 1.025 gallons per minute.
3880 CC/Min.
850 +1680 X2 = 5060 CC/Min minus lag (X.87) = 4402
water subtracts fuel BTUs but given the modest amount at that time it isn't a major reduction.
all of these calcs assume maximized parameters, for instance perfect ignition. of course i am also assuming your turbo is a T70.
if it is a T70 your duty cycle 88% is too high for the airflow and AFR. do you log fuel pressure? i consider logging fuel pressure to be essential as it will tell you the net state of your fuel delivery system when you need to know it.... under boost. you may have a pressure fall off.
it has come to my attention that there has been some ground breaking research done re the correct injectant for boosted motors.
in 1944.
executive summary:
water (is good for 18 psi)
water methanol (about 50/50) is good for about 30 psi
see Barry Bordes thread.
as to spark plugs.... i build rotaries... i disassemble lots of them and they all have stories to tell based on the forensics. 9 heat range plugs have no place in a modded boosted rotary as they retain too much heat at the spark plug boss. the rotor housings need to be flat so they provide a perfect mating surface for the apex seal. heat buildup at the boss raises the area and pushes the apex seal off the housing. the cooler you can keep this area the better, anytime the apex seal is off the housing it loses the ability to transfer heat to the housing resulting in warpage to the apex seal. of course compression is also lost. cold plugs decrease boss build.
there are certain items that must take precedence... cold plugs are near the top of the list. if you can't fire them then the ignition needs to be upgraded. BTW, there is alot of crap out there in the ignition space so do serious research. your ignition should fire cleanly at 10.0 AFR at 30 PSI w water meth... if not, re-engineer it as that's where the power is.
howard
Thanks for your input!
The turbo im using is not really a T70. This turbo is made by Turbobandit.com but i believe it has som similaritys to a T70. I think the TB70 stands for TurboBandit with a inducer of 70mm. It is rated at 950 hp in a piston engine. It´s a T4 devided flange with a A/R ratio of 1,15 at the exhausthousing. Altho i don´t have a compressor map for it. But i know for a fact that some swedish people have been dynoing around 800-900 whp in both 4wd Audis and 2wd BMW´s and mercedes. Here is the link to my turbo: http://www.turbobanditen.se/shop/ It´s the one called TB70-04.
About the dutycycle. The 88% reading is the maximum reading from the PFC. My goal is to lean the map out to 11,0 AFR. I do not log fuel pressure sadly. My base pressure is 43 PSI (3 bar). The map is pretty bumpy right now.
11,0 AFR would maby bring the dutycycle down to around 80-83% by a guess. Why is 88% to much? You mean that there is to much fuel injected compare to air wich would kill power? Next time i´ll go out for some mapping i will run my water injector for 400 cc/min.
Regarding the spark plugs you may be right. I have no experience in this area tho. No more than theese plugs where working flawless the whole last season at 1,2 bar without water injection. I may upgrade later on. What is suggested? 10 or maby 11?
Im not shure but 527 whp sounds alot. But then again, the car is really fast! I will bring it to a major track event called "gatebil" at 15-17 june so i guess i will be able to compare to many other fast cars.
My plan is also to have the car dynoed in the end of the season this year IF the motor is still working =) My goal is 500 hp at the crank.
So regarding the primary goal with this thread:
Am i spraying too little water if im spraying 400cc/min at 500-550 Whp?
Best regards
Olle
Last edited by Howard Coleman; Jun 5, 2012 at 07:35 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Stockholm
I just read the thread by Barry and it seems that it would be impossible to boost more then 18 PSI? Yet people are boosting 30 PSI on pump and water. Maby it´s just me who can´t read the graphs but it´s kind of confusing...
And about running as much water the ignition can handle. I would not think that a simple hks twinpower and stock coils would fire anything above 500-600 cc of water with a AFR at 11,0. But this is just what i think, i have no real life experience in this. Maby some one have tested the limits of the hks twin power?
And about running as much water the ignition can handle. I would not think that a simple hks twinpower and stock coils would fire anything above 500-600 cc of water with a AFR at 11,0. But this is just what i think, i have no real life experience in this. Maby some one have tested the limits of the hks twin power?
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
your turbo looks to be a GT4294. that changes my calculations significantly.
the GT42 makes 1125 CFM (78 pound per minute) at 19. i had you at 70 on the "if" assumption you had a T70.
fuel needs at the GT42 flow rate and AFR would then be 4323 CC.
given your duty cycle and capacity i had you at:
"850 +1680 X2 = 5060 CC/Min minus lag (X.87) = 4402"
so you don't have any delivery problems w fuel currently and you were close to maxxing out the turbo at that boost level.
24 psi is max boost at 85 pounds per minute... you will be out of fuel BTW
(there is nothing wrong w running at 88 IDC, it is just there isn't much more to be had and if you do run the injectors close to 100% they may overheat)
as to your primary question, i say run as much water as your ignition will allow and eventually acquire an ignition system that will fire anything you throw at it. making 600 hp from such a small displacement engine creates hellacious combustion chamber pressure and when combined w water you need all the ignition you can get.
whether the NACA paper is completely in synch w our motors it is clear that when water is combined w methanol significant advantages accrue.
howard
the GT42 makes 1125 CFM (78 pound per minute) at 19. i had you at 70 on the "if" assumption you had a T70.
fuel needs at the GT42 flow rate and AFR would then be 4323 CC.
given your duty cycle and capacity i had you at:
"850 +1680 X2 = 5060 CC/Min minus lag (X.87) = 4402"
so you don't have any delivery problems w fuel currently and you were close to maxxing out the turbo at that boost level.
24 psi is max boost at 85 pounds per minute... you will be out of fuel BTW
(there is nothing wrong w running at 88 IDC, it is just there isn't much more to be had and if you do run the injectors close to 100% they may overheat)
as to your primary question, i say run as much water as your ignition will allow and eventually acquire an ignition system that will fire anything you throw at it. making 600 hp from such a small displacement engine creates hellacious combustion chamber pressure and when combined w water you need all the ignition you can get.
whether the NACA paper is completely in synch w our motors it is clear that when water is combined w methanol significant advantages accrue.
howard
"Elusive, not deceptive!
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 930
Likes: 13
From: Slidell, LA
I just read the thread by Barry and it seems that it would be impossible to boost more then 18 PSI? Yet people are boosting 30 PSI on pump and water. Maby it´s just me who can´t read the graphs but it´s kind of confusing...
And about running as much water the ignition can handle. I would not think that a simple hks twinpower and stock coils would fire anything above 500-600 cc of water with a AFR at 11,0. But this is just what i think, i have no real life experience in this. Maby some one have tested the limits of the hks twin power?
And about running as much water the ignition can handle. I would not think that a simple hks twinpower and stock coils would fire anything above 500-600 cc of water with a AFR at 11,0. But this is just what i think, i have no real life experience in this. Maby some one have tested the limits of the hks twin power?
The question should be how much water are they spraying for 30 psi?
The charts first compare 0%, 20%, 40%, and 60% water (Report no. 756).
The other report (No. 815) compares injectorants at 50% of your fuel used.
You seem to want to try 10%.
Barry
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
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From: Stockholm
your turbo looks to be a GT4294. that changes my calculations significantly.
the GT42 makes 1125 CFM (78 pound per minute) at 19. i had you at 70 on the "if" assumption you had a T70.
fuel needs at the GT42 flow rate and AFR would then be 4323 CC.
given your duty cycle and capacity i had you at:
"850 +1680 X2 = 5060 CC/Min minus lag (X.87) = 4402"
so you don't have any delivery problems w fuel currently and you were close to maxxing out the turbo at that boost level.
24 psi is max boost at 85 pounds per minute... you will be out of fuel BTW
(there is nothing wrong w running at 88 IDC, it is just there isn't much more to be had and if you do run the injectors close to 100% they may overheat)
as to your primary question, i say run as much water as your ignition will allow and eventually acquire an ignition system that will fire anything you throw at it. making 600 hp from such a small displacement engine creates hellacious combustion chamber pressure and when combined w water you need all the ignition you can get.
whether the NACA paper is completely in synch w our motors it is clear that when water is combined w methanol significant advantages accrue.
howard
the GT42 makes 1125 CFM (78 pound per minute) at 19. i had you at 70 on the "if" assumption you had a T70.
fuel needs at the GT42 flow rate and AFR would then be 4323 CC.
given your duty cycle and capacity i had you at:
"850 +1680 X2 = 5060 CC/Min minus lag (X.87) = 4402"
so you don't have any delivery problems w fuel currently and you were close to maxxing out the turbo at that boost level.
24 psi is max boost at 85 pounds per minute... you will be out of fuel BTW
(there is nothing wrong w running at 88 IDC, it is just there isn't much more to be had and if you do run the injectors close to 100% they may overheat)
as to your primary question, i say run as much water as your ignition will allow and eventually acquire an ignition system that will fire anything you throw at it. making 600 hp from such a small displacement engine creates hellacious combustion chamber pressure and when combined w water you need all the ignition you can get.
whether the NACA paper is completely in synch w our motors it is clear that when water is combined w methanol significant advantages accrue.
howard
So the conclusion is that i will go out and start tuning with the 400 cc nozzle. When the tune is good for that nozzle i will switch to the 790 cc nozzle and see how it goes. I reckon it will not even fire the mix as soon as the nozzle starts to spray.
If i ever will use a methanol and water mix, i will most likely change the system to something wich is more like an ordinary fuel system (circulating) and with some safeguards.
Any one know how good these Suflow pumps are?
Im gonna be back with some tuning talk next week as i need to work 32 hrs this weekend =(
Thanks for all the inputs so far! They are very much appreciated!
//Olle
Barry, does this mean that you inject both pre-turbo and post turbo on the same motor at the same time? Or one is alternate to the other?
"Elusive, not deceptive!
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 930
Likes: 13
From: Slidell, LA
An 360cc/min atomizer nozzle preturbo in the K&N filter and the 800cc/min post intercooler (just barely visable in the upper right hand corner of the photo).
Barry
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From: Stockholm
Update
I did some tuning last night and it´s all clear now that a simple twin power and stock coils will NOT fire 400cc water at anything above 1,2 bar boost. I dont know if its just my coils that are a bit old or not working properly but i can´t boost more than 1,2 bar at 11,0 AFR whitout misfires.
It´s a bit sad as i´ve expected it to work up to atleast 1,4-1,5 bar boost. And as i mentioned earlier i have tried to run at 1,35 bar before but it then misfires sometimes. But when it doesnt its really really fast.
As i see it, i have 4 options:
1. Leave it as it is at 1,2 bar and just drive the hell out of it.
2. Mix 50/50 with water and 98% ethanol to see if that helps so i can raise the boost to 1,35 bar. Inject 400cc of that mix.
3. Invest in two new ignition coils on the leading plugs to see if that makes any differences to the misfires.
4. Put in my bigger nozzle (790 cc/min) and just use plain 98% ethanol to get the extra cooling. This option may need some tuning that i dont want to do really...
I really really want to raise the boost to 1,35-1,4 bar as the car feels much quicker than at 1,2 bar.
Any suggestions????
Olle Lindén
I did some tuning last night and it´s all clear now that a simple twin power and stock coils will NOT fire 400cc water at anything above 1,2 bar boost. I dont know if its just my coils that are a bit old or not working properly but i can´t boost more than 1,2 bar at 11,0 AFR whitout misfires.
It´s a bit sad as i´ve expected it to work up to atleast 1,4-1,5 bar boost. And as i mentioned earlier i have tried to run at 1,35 bar before but it then misfires sometimes. But when it doesnt its really really fast.
As i see it, i have 4 options:
1. Leave it as it is at 1,2 bar and just drive the hell out of it.
2. Mix 50/50 with water and 98% ethanol to see if that helps so i can raise the boost to 1,35 bar. Inject 400cc of that mix.
3. Invest in two new ignition coils on the leading plugs to see if that makes any differences to the misfires.
4. Put in my bigger nozzle (790 cc/min) and just use plain 98% ethanol to get the extra cooling. This option may need some tuning that i dont want to do really...
I really really want to raise the boost to 1,35-1,4 bar as the car feels much quicker than at 1,2 bar.
Any suggestions????
Olle Lindén
"Elusive, not deceptive!
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 930
Likes: 13
From: Slidell, LA
Update
I did some tuning last night and it´s all clear now that a simple twin power and stock coils will NOT fire 400cc water at anything above 1,2 bar boost. I dont know if its just my coils that are a bit old or not working properly but i can´t boost more than 1,2 bar at 11,0 AFR whitout misfires.
It´s a bit sad as i´ve expected it to work up to atleast 1,4-1,5 bar boost. And as i mentioned earlier i have tried to run at 1,35 bar before but it then misfires sometimes. But when it doesnt its really really fast.
As i see it, i have 4 options:
1. Leave it as it is at 1,2 bar and just drive the hell out of it.
2. Mix 50/50 with water and 98% ethanol to see if that helps so i can raise the boost to 1,35 bar. Inject 400cc of that mix.
3. Invest in two new ignition coils on the leading plugs to see if that makes any differences to the misfires.
4. Put in my bigger nozzle (790 cc/min) and just use plain 98% ethanol to get the extra cooling. This option may need some tuning that i dont want to do really...
I really really want to raise the boost to 1,35-1,4 bar as the car feels much quicker than at 1,2 bar.
Any suggestions????
Olle Lindén
I did some tuning last night and it´s all clear now that a simple twin power and stock coils will NOT fire 400cc water at anything above 1,2 bar boost. I dont know if its just my coils that are a bit old or not working properly but i can´t boost more than 1,2 bar at 11,0 AFR whitout misfires.
It´s a bit sad as i´ve expected it to work up to atleast 1,4-1,5 bar boost. And as i mentioned earlier i have tried to run at 1,35 bar before but it then misfires sometimes. But when it doesnt its really really fast.
As i see it, i have 4 options:
1. Leave it as it is at 1,2 bar and just drive the hell out of it.
2. Mix 50/50 with water and 98% ethanol to see if that helps so i can raise the boost to 1,35 bar. Inject 400cc of that mix.
3. Invest in two new ignition coils on the leading plugs to see if that makes any differences to the misfires.
4. Put in my bigger nozzle (790 cc/min) and just use plain 98% ethanol to get the extra cooling. This option may need some tuning that i dont want to do really...
I really really want to raise the boost to 1,35-1,4 bar as the car feels much quicker than at 1,2 bar.
Any suggestions????
Olle Lindén
What is your spark plug gap?
Reducing it to about .024" (.6mm) might help.
I wouldn't get rid of all of the water. Go 30% minimum.
Keeping your AFRs as constant as possible will help. Try not to go into the 10's.
Barry
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From: Stockholm
Ok, update on the ignition break up issue.
2 weeks ago i went to the big event "gatebil" wich was held here in Sweden at one of our biggest tracks called "Mantorp park".
The night before i trailed my car there, me and a friend went out to finish the map with 400 cc of water injected post IC. We started of with 1,35 bar but the ignition couldn´t fire the water at all... So i lowered the boost gradually from 1,35 bar down to 1,17 bar.
At 1,17 bar the ignition could just about fire the mixture of water and gasoline/air at a AFR of 11,0. BUT, the car felt a little bit powerless... (we also pulled about 2 degrees of timing to safe the tune up even more). But nevertheless the car ran and it was running relatively good with the water injection switched on.
So the day after i went to the big event and at the first track session i just drove 2 laps and the car was misfireing the whole time. So i decided to go in the pits and download the old map from 2011 and drive it at 1,2 bar without the water injection.
Said and done i did it and the car worked flawless the whole weekend with ALOT of punishment! It was even faster than alot of the heavily tuned BMWs.
So the plan for the rest of the season is to run at this map wich i know works great and just abuse it. The next event will be in Norway 13-15 july where the famous drifter "Mad Mike" will appear with his 4-rotor FD.
And there are more good news. I just finished my education as a mechanical engineer at the royal institute of technology here in Sweden and got a job as a project manager at Wallenius Water today (www.walleniuswater.com). So happy times are coming up. First up is a business trip to China next week!
I will update more regarding the car when i have new stuff to add.
And as someone said earlier: to utilize water injection to the max, CDI is a MUST!
Best regards
Olle Lindén
2 weeks ago i went to the big event "gatebil" wich was held here in Sweden at one of our biggest tracks called "Mantorp park".
The night before i trailed my car there, me and a friend went out to finish the map with 400 cc of water injected post IC. We started of with 1,35 bar but the ignition couldn´t fire the water at all... So i lowered the boost gradually from 1,35 bar down to 1,17 bar.
At 1,17 bar the ignition could just about fire the mixture of water and gasoline/air at a AFR of 11,0. BUT, the car felt a little bit powerless... (we also pulled about 2 degrees of timing to safe the tune up even more). But nevertheless the car ran and it was running relatively good with the water injection switched on.
So the day after i went to the big event and at the first track session i just drove 2 laps and the car was misfireing the whole time. So i decided to go in the pits and download the old map from 2011 and drive it at 1,2 bar without the water injection.
Said and done i did it and the car worked flawless the whole weekend with ALOT of punishment! It was even faster than alot of the heavily tuned BMWs.
So the plan for the rest of the season is to run at this map wich i know works great and just abuse it. The next event will be in Norway 13-15 july where the famous drifter "Mad Mike" will appear with his 4-rotor FD.
And there are more good news. I just finished my education as a mechanical engineer at the royal institute of technology here in Sweden and got a job as a project manager at Wallenius Water today (www.walleniuswater.com). So happy times are coming up. First up is a business trip to China next week!
I will update more regarding the car when i have new stuff to add.
And as someone said earlier: to utilize water injection to the max, CDI is a MUST!
Best regards
Olle Lindén
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