E85 13b 25psi 670rwhp
Just got off the phone with a friend. He ended up making 670rwhp using E85 fuel :icon_tup:
motor specs: 13brew full bridge port motor- pinned/dowelled s6 rotors standard mazda 3mm seals intercooled 74mm turbo bush bearing microtech LT10s computer with x4 igniter box bosch coils 42mm garrett wastegate -old wastegate B9EGV plugs trailing and leading 4x 1600cc injectors 2x 044 bosch pumps it made 670hp at 25psi boost 11.0 to 11.3 afr's Boost was hitting 30psi then it dropped off to 25psi at top end due to the small 42mm wastegate. This is on a LT10s with no upgraded map sensor. Its still using the standard microtech x4 igniter box only... no CDI and its running b9egv plugs Motor was revved to 8000rpm. Rev cut 8000rpm.. I will post up the dyno sheets and some videos in a couple of days when i get them. Car will be raced in a weeks time. The owner said it had over 10 full dyno runs with no problems what so ever. Any questions please feel free to ask. We need more E85 cars like this on the road! :icon_tup: |
http://www.eroticmotorsports.com/ilbuzu/DSC08112.JPG
and a phone pic earlier on that day...not the final run http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d142/ILBUZU/021-2.jpg |
great #s,
what kind of timing?? |
very nice ###'s
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what was your injector duty cycle?
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I haven't seen the car yet... but the owner said timings on 15 degrees. He doesn't know what % the injectors are at.
The car raced on the weekend and ran lean in 4th gear = 2 melted plugs 45psi map sensor upgrade and more tuning in the next month. |
Originally Posted by series3
(Post 9049461)
I haven't seen the car yet... but the owner said timings on 15 degrees. He doesn't know what % the injectors are at.
The car raced on the weekend and ran lean in 4th gear = 2 melted plugs 45psi map sensor upgrade and more tuning in the next month. Nice numbers. What time did he run exactly? |
Its melted the plugs twice already and still idles fine and starts up straight away :lol:
The car did not have a clean run (10.2 was the quickest of the day) ... its running 26x10 inch slicks, toyota supra w57 box and bent the wheelie bars like a banana on the first pass. Before the computer gets sent out I'll go past and see what the timing really set at. |
split - 10*
t_map -10 |
Good looking car mate. But no way he's getting 670rwhp on 4x1680cc injectors. He needs min 6 injectors to do this. I managed 530rwhp on 4 1680 injectors last year with E85 and we where at 98% duty cycle then. We raised the base fuel pressure to 45 psi and it dropped to 95%.
So no way he's getting that amount of power with only 4 injectors. JT |
Originally Posted by jantore
(Post 9086663)
Good looking car mate. But no way he's getting 670rwhp on 4x1680cc injectors. He needs min 6 injectors to do this. I managed 530rwhp on 4 1680 injectors last year with E85 and we where at 98% duty cycle then. We raised the base fuel pressure to 45 psi and it dropped to 95%.
So no way he's getting that amount of power with only 4 injectors. JT What do you have? |
Originally Posted by pmr eng
(Post 9086714)
He uses 2 x 044 fuel pumps, that's 106 GPH at 73 psi!
What do you have? I have a Aeromotive Pro Series fuel pump that delivers about 1000 lbs at 60 psi. And i was running a static pressure of 45 psi at 0 boost. So it increased about 21 psi from 0. So at max boost i was running 66psi of fuel pressure. So that's about 145-160 gph at 66 psi of fuel pressure. So don't think that's the problem mate. It's basicly 4 injectors can't deliver enough fuel on E85 for that amount of HP. 530-550rwhp is about the limit on 4x1680cc injectors. If u look at more posts here u will see the same thing, they can't do more. JT |
here we go again...
there are 18,400 BTUs in a pound of gasoline. alcohol delivers 9500 BTUs per pound. BTUs equal POWER. from the above you can see it takes 1.93 pounds of alcohol to deliver the power in one pound of gasoline. it takes 3773 CC/Min at 11.3 AFR to make 500 rw rotary hp on gas. it takes 7281 CC/Min to make 500 rotary rwhp on alcohol. therefore it would take approx 6774 of E85 (assuming 85/15 by weight) to make 500 rear wheel rotary hp 4 X 1680 = 6720 at 100% duty. to make 500 rw rotary hp. maybe if you run the injectors static open and crank up the pressure... run them sort of like nozzles... til they overheat. since flow increases at the SQUARE ROOT of the change in pressure.... if you were to double the pressure you would get a 10% increase in flow volume. so you could make 550 howard coleman |
i guess you guys didn't see the e85 dyno chart/post in the single turbo section. check it out.
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Originally Posted by jantore
(Post 9086728)
So it will still limit the amount of fuel on the injectors even tho the injectors will deliver more fuel at higher pressure.
I have a Aeromotive Pro Series fuel pump that delivers about 1000 lbs at 60 psi. And i was running a static pressure of 45 psi at 0 boost. So it increased about 21 psi from 0. So at max boost i was running 66psi of fuel pressure. So that's about 145-160 gph at 66 psi of fuel pressure. So don't think that's the problem mate. It's basicly 4 injectors can't deliver enough fuel on E85 for that amount of HP. 530-550rwhp is about the limit on 4x1680cc injectors. If u look at more posts here u will see the same thing, they can't do more. JT It seems you have more than enough flow.... The only another thing that I can think of is, much higher fuel pressure, you may not be running an intercooler or fuel injector location (much higher up the runner) If you have all these bases covered then someone is not telling the truth here |
Originally Posted by pmr eng
(Post 9088634)
Hi,
It seems you have more than enough flow.... The only another thing that I can think of is, much higher fuel pressure, you may not be running an intercooler or fuel injector location (much higher up the runner) If you have all these bases covered then someone is not telling the truth here JT |
This info might change things
Gas = 19000 BTU Methanal = 9500 BTU Ethanol =12500 BTU E85 =13475 BTU |
Originally Posted by series3
(Post 9024884)
Boost was hitting 30psi then it dropped off to 25psi at top end due to the small 42mm wastegate.
Boost drops when there's a restriction in the exhaust or your overspinning the turbo.. |
The car is only running 4x1600 injectors 40psi static. I was shocked when he told me what he made too :lol:
The microtech is getting a map sensor upgrade plus the data logging feature installed :icon_tup: After that its going on the dyno again in around 1months time ... this time I'll be there to record it even though i don't like the tuner . And i will post up the data log (if it doesn't blow :lol: ) enzo: Im only posting what the owner told me over the phone. He ended up buying a 60mm wastegate and smoothing the insides of the manifold with a die grinder . 2inch ID manifold with about a 90 degree bend going to the wastegate. 3 1/3 inch exhaust. t6 1.05 a/r exhaust housing. I'll keep everyone updated in around 1months time after the new tune. |
Originally Posted by IronMdnX
(Post 9090331)
This info might change things
Gas = 19000 BTU Methanal = 9500 BTU Ethanol =12500 BTU E85 =13475 BTU -J |
Originally Posted by internal comsucktion engi
(Post 9114392)
E85 and other Ethanol based fuels aren't used for the amount of BTUs the make. There is a MUCH bigger picture here :rolleyes:
-J |
E85 13b 25psi 670rwhp
he also needs to run colder spark plugs .
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Its got a 60mm wastegate now.. It had a 12psi spring in the old 42mm wastegate 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear was hitting 12psi and 4th was spiking to 30psi then dropping off to 25. It has no tap or boost controller.
They never knew what the injector cycle was at cause they never monitored that :dunno: But going from other posts on here maxing out at 550hp... must of been the reason why it never ran properly when in 4th gear -farting and popping and melting the plugs, so it must of been very very lean. It did make 670hp on the dyno with the manifold glowing red hot but when he ran it at the track it never ran properly in 4th gear. 2 more indy blue injectors are being fitted. Dont know what hes doing with the ignition side and plugs... The tuner told him to run b9 plugs :lol: |
Originally Posted by series3
(Post 9053125)
split - 10*
t_map -10 He is running 15 deg advance, and he is retarding 10Deg at 25psi? or at 15? or what? Doesn't this mean he is running at 5Deg advance actual timing and this is pretty conservative for a E85 rotary, right? I am running e 85 25 advance with a Tmap of -17 above 16psi which puts me at 8deg actual advance with a split of 8 going down to a split of 6 towards the upper rpm range but my engine is a renesis which is 10:1 compression. I am running an lt10s with ls2 coils and I boost up to 20-21psi due to the fact that my Microtech only goes up to 20psi. The turbo is a Precision turbo PT71GTQ...2 X -044 pumps with aeromotive regulator, 2X 720cc Primaries, 2X 1000cc Primary 2's and 2X1680cc Secondaries(renesis has 6 injectors total). Also if he is running 5 deg actual advance, 10deg of gap would put him at -5deg for the trailing, is this better?, worse? Am I pushing mine too much...Any thoughts.. Great numbers by the way :). Thanks for the help. Chris |
Originally Posted by ChrisRX8PR
(Post 9145669)
Ok so correct me if I am wrong...
He is running 15 deg advance, and he is retarding 10Deg at 25psi? or at 15? or what? Doesn't this mean he is running at 5Deg advance actual timing and this is pretty conservative for a E85 rotary, right? I am running e 85 25 advance with a Tmap of -17 above 16psi which puts me at 8deg actual advance with a split of 8 going down to a split of 6 towards the upper rpm range but my engine is a renesis which is 10:1 compression. I am running an lt10s with ls2 coils and I boost up to 20-21psi due to the fact that my Microtech only goes up to 20psi. The turbo is a Precision turbo PT71GTQ...2 X -044 pumps with aeromotive regulator, 2X 720cc Primaries, 2X 1000cc Primary 2's and 2X1680cc Secondaries(renesis has 6 injectors total). Also if he is running 5 deg actual advance, 10deg of gap would put him at -5deg for the trailing, is this better?, worse? Am I pushing mine too much...Any thoughts.. Great numbers by the way :). Thanks for the help. Chris Anyone? Chris |
1 Attachment(s)
Actually... he'll only be at 82% duty cycle with 4 x 1600cc at 9500 rpm. If he brings it up to 9500 rpm, he should be able to hit 730 hp.
My calculations at 10.5 AFR give 660 hp at 8000 rpm, so he's right on the money. I would say his bridgeport flows slightly more than my calculated flow which is for a large streetport. Here's the calculated dyno plot according to his set-up. Attachment 709766 Injector Pulsewidth rpm Primary (ms) Secondary (ms) 1000 7.70 0.00 1500 9.20 0.00 2000 10.84 0.00 2500 12.62 0.00 3000 14.56 0.00 3500 8.35 8.35 4000 9.27 9.27 4500 10.20 10.20 5000 11.16 11.16 5500 12.67 12.67 6000 12.27 12.27 6500 12.12 12.12 7000 11.86 11.86 7500 11.61 11.61 8000 11.35 11.35 8500 11.09 11.09 9000 10.83 10.83 9500 10.58 10.58 Duty Cycle (%) rpm Primary Secondary 1000 6.42 0.00 1500 11.50 0.00 2000 18.06 0.00 2500 26.29 0.00 3000 36.41 0.00 3500 24.35 24.35 4000 30.89 30.89 4500 38.24 38.24 5000 46.50 46.50 5500 58.05 58.05 6000 61.35 61.35 6500 65.67 65.67 7000 69.21 69.21 7500 72.54 72.54 8000 75.66 75.66 8500 78.56 78.56 9000 81.25 81.25 9500 83.72 83.72 |
Oh shit forgot he has E85. So he's actually at 90% at 9500 rpm. Oops.
rpm Pri (ms) Sec (ms) 1000 8.30 0.00 1500 9.92 0.00 2000 11.68 0.00 2500 13.60 0.00 3000 15.70 0.00 3500 9.00 9.00 4000 9.99 9.99 4500 11.00 11.00 5000 12.03 12.03 5500 13.66 13.66 6000 13.23 13.23 6500 13.07 13.07 7000 12.79 12.79 7500 12.52 12.52 8000 12.24 12.24 8500 11.96 11.96 9000 11.68 11.68 9500 11.40 11.40 Duty (%) rpm Pri Sec 1000 6.92 0.00 1500 12.40 0.00 2000 19.47 0.00 2500 28.34 0.00 3000 39.26 0.00 3500 26.26 26.26 4000 33.31 33.31 4500 41.24 41.24 5000 50.13 50.13 5500 62.60 62.60 6000 66.15 66.15 6500 70.80 70.80 7000 74.63 74.63 7500 78.22 78.22 8000 81.58 81.58 8500 84.71 84.71 9000 87.61 87.61 9500 90.27 90.27 |
^^^^^^ I calculated for E15 instead of E85. You guys are right. 4x1600 is impossible. He hits 80% duty cycle at 5000 rpm.
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1 Attachment(s)
here's a pic of some of the runs he sent me... you can see how lean it was :shocking:
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Wow...... That's the leanest AFR I've ever seen on a 600 hp car.
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Originally Posted by ChrisRX8PR
(Post 9145669)
Ok so correct me if I am wrong...
He is running 15 deg advance, and he is retarding 10Deg at 25psi? or at 15? or what? Doesn't this mean he is running at 5Deg advance actual timing and this is pretty conservative for a E85 rotary, right? I am running e 85 25 advance with a Tmap of -17 above 16psi which puts me at 8deg actual advance with a split of 8 going down to a split of 6 towards the upper rpm range but my engine is a renesis which is 10:1 compression. I am running an lt10s with ls2 coils and I boost up to 20-21psi due to the fact that my Microtech only goes up to 20psi. The turbo is a Precision turbo PT71GTQ...2 X -044 pumps with aeromotive regulator, 2X 720cc Primaries, 2X 1000cc Primary 2's and 2X1680cc Secondaries(renesis has 6 injectors total). Also if he is running 5 deg actual advance, 10deg of gap would put him at -5deg for the trailing, is this better?, worse? Am I pushing mine too much...Any thoughts.. Great numbers by the way :). Thanks for the help. Chris Anyone? Chris |
Originally Posted by series3
(Post 9160316)
here's a pic of some of the runs he sent me... you can see how lean it was :shocking:
I think he needs enrichen the mixture but we should be very careful calling foul his numbers. Barry |
thanks Jared. i apologise for missing the fact that ethanol has 34% BTUs than methanol.
howard coleman |
Originally Posted by enzo250
(Post 9092335)
Usually when a wastegate is too small you will have boost go up NOT down....
Boost drops when there's a restriction in the exhaust or your overspinning the turbo.. |
Originally Posted by IronMdnX
(Post 9090331)
This info might change things
Gas = 19000 BTU Methanal = 9500 BTU Ethanol =12500 BTU E85 =13475 BTU So our guy's 670rwhp is entirely possible if he's pushing his injectors to the max. with a little higher line pressure as well... which he was probably doing. His ''regular'' everyday tune would probably be at 22-23psi & 630rwhp to keep it within the injectors regular use safe limits... |
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