Nice, Shawn! I'm going to try this out later today.

Hey mate, I checked my logs and the primary injector pw is not immediately reduced to offset the secondaries turning on, but my AFR stays on target. I expect at least some of this "extra" fuel is because much of that initial shot is lost to wall wetting. Maybe try setting the secondaries to stage only over 90kpa/4000rpm and see how it behaves? By the way, you have minimum injector pw and volume both set, you only need fuel volume. Minimum injector pw will affect asychronous injection pulse as well which can be... undesirable to say the least. As in why did my car turn off when I floored it. :lol:

You also have a big delay set on the map sensor signal, you can likely remove that and just leave the degree based averaging.

Ok; setting the min PW on the ID2000 fixed it.:lol: Im bit confused why if you select an injector from the dropdown list it sets automatically a min PW, which is 1.5 msec for the ID2000

So to be clear, did you remove minimum injector PW and leave minimum volume or did you remove both? If your secondaries are trying to operate much under 1.5ms when you stage them they will probably be getting close to the non linear zone. Glad it is working better for you now though. :)

Only set the minimum duration to 0: minimum volume I left to 15. It seems like minimum duration the secondaries see is close to 1.2 msec

1.2ms seems to work out to about 45ul so that makes sense. Great success! :) Thanks for the update.

Hello Shawn,

After looking into the transient tuning I managed to get the car drive almost as decent as stock, now it seems although that the rpm rate correction works different then you say. I logged during some low load conditions a very instable total fuel trim, like values up t0 30% without any rapid throttle movement to speak off. Tracing it back it comes from the fueltrim user enrichment. this should be rpm rate and transients. the AE is not triggered, the wall film model is also not causing it. this leaves that it must come from the RPM rate correction.

To start I filled the whole map with 5%, assuming that 5000 rpm/sec would give 5% enrichment. Now I see like 30% with 5700 rpm/sec (268.658sec). also with negative rpm rates there is a postive enrichment. (268.778sec). Its not an extreme issue but it causes some instability when driving with low loads. I will retry with putting the rpm rate correction off.

I have missed a specification that I do not use RPM rate in the vacuum area only in positive pressure areas.

Hm Shawn to be honest I think it still works different then what you specify. Please see screenshots and attached log.

The values for user enrich are huge even with small rpm rates and small values in the map. this is a 3rd gear pull at 15 psi with a now and then hint of wheelspin.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...bc6ddc1fd3.png
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...fb543b9eb9.png

Hi Rub20b,

I appreciate your seaking for knowledge but yes indeed it does work the way I explained. I will now explain how you are getting different results -

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...1c9ae45f0e.png
Here is your log displayed in a histogram - Rpm Rate x Imap x total fuel trim. I can see the same trims you are seeing from your log.



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...4c60fa0206.png
Now here is your data translated differently - RPM Rate x Imap x Closed Loop Fuel Trim.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...358be20095.png
Here is your closed loop settings from the ECU file. The ECU is adding/subtracting fuel as you are in boost and doing transient actions.

Ok, but in the screenshot I posted the I turned off the closed loop to rule that out. You can see this at label #11: FuelTrim_closed_lp_1 is 0 over the entire window, also the async is not triggered. the wall film model does a bit but max 4-5%. If you substract the wal film model output from the total trim the only thing that is left is the rpm rate correction if I analyse the results I find that it does roughly 3-4 times more then what is in the map. For instance 3% in the map gives around 10-12% enrichment for 5000 rpm/sec rpm rate.

Im not trying to prove you wrong. I just want to understand how this works and hopefully help others that will without question end up in the same position one day :D

The screen shots I took from your log if you minus the closed loop trim minus the total fuel trim equals the rpm rate trim you have in the rpm rate field...

maybe they are averaged in the histogram view and one doesn't see the peaks? look at the data vs time in a normal log viewer. below i marked in yellow so you can be sure there is no intervention of the closed loop...... if you look for example at cursor 2 you see 5745 rpm/sec nets 15.3% trim. of which 0.8% comes from wall film. this is 14.5%/5745*5000 = 12.62% per 5k rpm/sec rate with 3% in the map


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...9b918991ec.png

Hey mate may I ask what log viewer you're using please? :) FYI with no RPM rate enrichment my AFRs are usually around 10:1 in top gear and 11:1 in first. Not ideal but I think in the real world most tuners would be fine with that.

I'm not sure what processing Adaptronic are doing to the RPM signal before applying the RPM rate enrichment, however this method may be prone to "noise" in the RPM signal, e.g. bumps in the road can cause RPM to spike and this will trigger the enrichment when it may not be necessary.

Its Etas MDA, comes together with Etas INCA. It's used alot in the industry but I am unsure if its remotely cheap for fome users.

I found too now that the rpm rate is not very required something. But I just want to get my head around how it works in case I or anyone else needs it. I found out now it doesn't work as described.

Do you get any bump or spike in the measure lambda or afr during inj transition? I found out the wall film model does not take into account the film of the secondaries and this nets me a 15-20% lean spike just after the transition when staging at about 140 kPa during spool.

Staging works well for me so far, no lean spike. Where did you discover this? Sounds like you're saying wall fuel is only calculated per cylinder and not per injector stage? That sounds like a fuck up if so.

What injectors are you staging when this happens and what have you set the minimum fuel volume to?

If you're referring to the ID2000s and you're using 15ul as the minimum volume as you mentioned above, from what I can tell your secondary injectors may be staging at a pulsewidth as low as 0.25ms, is that right? You mentioned you see a minimum of 1.2ms, but is that after subtracting the dead time?

The ID2000 short pulse adder data seems to indicate they are only delivering approximately 50% of the expected fuel flow at 0.25ms, and I don't think Adaptronic model this in the firmware. I would be attempting to set the minimum fuel volume at around 45ul and see if that improves your staging.

I may have made a mistake with my math as I've proven in previous threads that is not my forte... :lol:

Sure bumping the minimum time or volume lessens the lean spike but if you then stay at the transition area (and you can as this software has no hystersis) it will rich out.

Do you use the staging map or just use the logic that it only activates the next stage when the previous reaches the minimum off time? I did not try the last method as the engine doesnt run as good when all the fuel comes through just one port.

The correct way really would be that there is a wall film model for each injector stage. As the film for secondaries is maybe 10x as big as the primaries. Especially with big injectors and xcessive LiM.

I use the logic that activates the next stage when the previous reaches the minimum off time. Where did you discover that wall film is not calculated per stage?

Are you able to try increasing the minimum fuel volume on the ID2000s to 45ul and let us know how it goes? :)

ill retry when I have the chance but I know actually from before it floods the engine when u stay near the transition.

here you see lean spike when the secondaries ramp in and the film model does nothing.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...f99cc26169.png

Hey mate, I got my car running and was able to do some testing. The fact that the primary injector PW is not decreased to account for the secondary injector minimum fuel volume seems like a bug to me. I also agree that wall film enrichment should probably be applied per stage. Have you raised these issues with Adaptronic?

That said, staging works well for me on a third gear pull with stock primaries and secondaries. I have the minimum fuel volume on the secondaries set to 0, X at 15% and tau at 0.2ms. AFR tracks target almost exactly.

In second gear I sometimes get a lean bump of around 0.3-0.5 AFR. It seems to happen just after the wastegate fully opens, and only if boost is building quickly.

What gear were you testing in the screenshot above? Does the AFR track the target correctly if you set the staging map to zero and let it stage automatically?

​Cheers,
Sam

that was a 3rd gear pull. I cannot get away with putting the staging map to zero without cutting up the rywire harness as otherwise it will stage the secondary stage which are the ID1000 in the xcsessive LIM primary runners.

I think with stock injectors and manifold offcourse the atomisation is a lot better due to this diffusors and air injection near the injectors, also a warmer MAT will help as thisreduces the wall film to be considered. the bigger the secondaries and the further away from the ports the more the effect will become visible. I communicated all this months ago to Adaptronic. no response...

Omar has mentioned on his Instagram that the staging works well for him even with Siemens 220lb secondaries, so I'm a bit stumped. I have some ID1050x and Siemens 220LB injectors waiting to go into my car so I'll let you know how that works out when complete but it's likely a few months away.

What about making up or purchasing some injector adapter harnesses so you can switch the injectors around for testing? :)

Thats a good idea actually.

need to go from id1000 to id2000 and vica versa. Still seems a lot of pain just because some Australian dudes didn't do their homework :D